A few goldendoodles wind up having golden retriever features.
Check out this photo of two goldendoodle puppies.
Generally, all goldendoodles shed, though not as much as golden retrievers. However, my guess is that if you get one with more golden features, the more shedding you’ll get. These golden-types are more common in F2 crosses, where the recessive genes that make up the golden’s coat can recombine.
My only problem with goldendoodles is that they are very often puppy-milled, and because the working-type golden is less valuable than the “white” ones, pet dog breeders are using working type dogs to make goldendoodles. This reduces the number of working-type dogs in the population. (When I say working-type here, I don’t mean dogs bred by serious dog sport enthusiasts. Here, I mean backyard breeders who just happen on working-type stock. Where I live, this is much more common than you’d think.)
Of course, mixing in the very intelligent and energetic standard poodle with the very intelligent and energetic working type golden results in a dog that has both characteristics with a bit of hybrid vigor. And that’s why so many people can’t stand their “red goldendoodles.”
The really big time breeders (and you know what these are) have actually started breeding European line show goldens with poodles to produce a dog that is both cute and calm. Of course, poodles don’t have that heavy-boned conformation and etremely calm temperament at all, and this results in a mixed bag with the temperament.
I have nothing against goldendoodles, provided the breeders are interested in producing healthy dogs. I would even be happy if they were breeding lines of working goldendoodles that could be trained to retrieve game (poodles can do it).
Perhaps using goldendoodles in some of the breeding programs as planned outcrosses could increase some genetic diversity. Poodles should not be under-estimated by anyone. They are every bit as intelligent as a retriever, and the standards often have drivey temperaments. After all, the standard poodle is a retriever, one of the original European water dogs.
However, if you want a dog that is low shed, go with the full standard poodle. Mixing in golden retriever makes this low-shedding characteristic hard to predict.
The high correlation between designer dogs and puppy mills has put many in the dog community against the whole concept en masse. I say that puppy mills move in where they see an opportunity… they’ve done (and continue to do) the same with every purebreed.
So what does the crossbreed fad tell us? People want something [new] because it’s new, or they want something [different] because they are dissatisfied with the current selection. Will the taste for mixedbreeds die down before any of them become established with a healthy gene pool and a crop of “responsible” breeders?
Maybe the entire idea will bring about change in our existing breeds. A mood shift away from “purity” for its own sake, a concept which did not prevent the creation of most breeds, but which soon followed after and has lead to dwindling gene pools and concentrated lack of diversity.
I personally think that the -doodle craze is the best thing to happen to dogdom in a long while. “New” breeds turn back the clock a little bit on the inbreeding we’ve done, they take away market share from breeds which should otherwise go extinct. They make breeders compete for homes for their puppies. And they make enough people ask “what is a breed, really” to allow for some better modus operandi to come about.
It will be interesting to see where this all ends up in 10 years.
After all, it’s not like you’re destroying golden retrievers by adding poodle. You can use both breeds exactly the same way, and they have very similar temperaments.
I am against puppy mills. I would never buy a dog through a website that uses pay pal. However, crossbreeding dogs intelligently isn’t a bad idea.
What the designer dog issue has done is to open up a competing market for purebred, closed registry dogs, and a competing system automatically causes changes to the original system. Monopolies grow stagnant; that’s why they are bad.
However, I don’t know whether the market for doodles is sustainable. I mean they very often aren’t as hypoallergenic as claimed to be. And because they are using lines of golden that are very much puppy mill quality (the super calm ones), you could be getting some issues with aggression.
The doodles actually resemble a breed that is extinct. They resemble the English Rough water dog, which Shakespeare called a “water rug.” However, I love how the F2 generations recombine retriever and poodle characteristics. I’ve even seen amn F2 golden doodle that looked like a golden Irish water spaniel, which kind of tells you how Irish water spaniels came about.
“After all, it’s not like you’re destroying golden retrievers by adding poodle. ”
I appreciate you saying that. I’ve heard too many pure breed purists suggest the opposite–which is completely illogical. In fact if more of the top GR and poodle breeders would stop fighting the doodle popularity and really learn about it, perhaps it would help the top doodle breeders be even more successful at creating healthy hybrids. And yes there are dozens and dozens of doodle breeders who are doing full health testing on their parent dogs to improve the health of their litters and breeding stock. I don’t think the trend will disappear.
See my history of water dogs.
https://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2009/10/01/the-history-of-water-dogs/
What I would like is to have a health registry for doodle breeders. Standard poodles and golden retrievers have well-known health disorders and we can track them. That’s what I’d like, and it would help my case in defending “doodling.”
People who deny that dogs have heterosis effects really don’t understand.
One of the real problems in golden retrievers is they aren’t very diverse genetically. A certain amount of inbreeding has occurred, and it continues to occurs. This results in inbreeding depressions, and inbreeding always affects the immune system.
This problem is worse in the flat-coated retriever than it is in the golden. Goldens and flat-coats were once the same breed. In fact, goldens have some of the same ancestors in their pedigree as flat-coats. Don’t you think we could help diversity in both breeds by allowing a little outcrossing?
If you look at black Angus (Aberdeen Angus) cattle on any farm, you’ll note that virtually none of them are purebred beyond five or six generations. Some have Hereford in them– the cross produces black baldies. As you breed back to the Angus, the animals resemble that breed perfectly.
It’s actually mostly BYB’s that breed the F2 (if by F2 you mean F1 x F1).
Typically the well known breeders that are concerned with health go to the F1b as the next generation and from there make F1b x F1b or F1b x F1 crosses (though the reasons aren’t health related as much as getting a low shedding dog related).
You see, that’s what I’m interested in.
I think these F2’s that look like goldens could be used to augment our breed’s genetic diversity. If you go through this blog, I talk about this a lot.
I think our concept of “breed” needs to change.
And poodles aren’t stupid dogs. They can be trained to do almost anything.
Are you familiar with the pudelpointer and the Deutsch Drahthaar/German wire-haired pointer?
Those dogs have poodle in them!
Hey Scottie! Please delete the Cheryl’sdogtraining post. I was working on Cheryl’s brag blog, and didn’t log out. Please replace it with my post —
My peeve with the designer dog market is that most of the so called breeders are only in it for the buck. I’ve had calls from people who wanted “pet” flatcoat males, only to find out that they have poodle girls that they planned to breed.
It didn’t matter that the pups couldn’t be registered with the AKC. Doodles (including Flat-a-doodles) aren’t registrable anyway. But some folks think that the pups would sell for lots of $$$, since its a “RARE BREED” or a “DESIGNER BREED.”
And not one of the callers was looking for a dog to complement their girl. None of them had done appropriate health checks. They cared about the sire & dam’s AKC registration, but wanted to produce pups that couldn’t be registered by the AKC, but might fetch a pretty penny.
BTW, I know of a few mixed FCR breedings. Five or six months after the pups were born, these “designer-dog breeders” were stuck with gangly adult-looking pups they couldn’t sell, and needed FCR rescue assistance to place them.
I deleted it.
I’m not talking about breeding for a buck, puppy mill nonsense. I agree with you on all of this. I don’t think most people who breed goldens, except serious people, actually do all the checks. The mill breeders who are producing these dogs for the money are about on the same level as people who mass-produce “white” and “calm” golden retrievers for over 2000 dollars. Not only do these dogs very often lack the working temperament, I have issues with breeding for that very light color and for calmness. (No serious British retriever person uses a show-line golden. They do use the dark ones, and they will tell you that they will never shoot over a “white” one. The dark-color in Britain is a virtual guarantee of field breeder. That doesn’t work here.)
I’m talking about a breed club and all breed registry taking genetic diversity seriously.
I guarantee you that we could create a working goldendoodle.
The doodle business, if it really took off (as in as many of them as there are Labs), would be a disaster for genetic diversity in retrievers. Because all “pet quality” dogs would suddenly find themselves bred with poodles. Where I live all pet quality goldens are actually very close descendants of field bred dogs. So that would be the end of the breed in my area. A few years ago, a friend of ours had a very drivey female red golden, and I wanted a puppy out of the dog. However, the only litters she had were doodles.
I’m very moderate on all of this genetic diversity, conformation breeding, and closed registry system. I’m not for abolishing those things exactly, but I am wanting some level of reform, such as having breed standards, like the flat-coat’s, that are based on working conformation. I’m thinking something for retrievers more along the lines of the Belgian shepherd registry system, that is used only in the FCI countries. Malinois, Tervs, Laeckenois, and Groenendael (what we call a Belgian sheep dog) have a system of controlled interbreeding. I actually see this reforms coming about in my lifetime, as the dog fancy becomes more enlightened to the needs of genetic diversity. I think Standard Poodles actually fit nicely into an allowed outcross.
Are you aware that this system exists in the cat show world? Most breeds have allowed outcrosses. The exotic short-haired cat, which looks like a short-haired Persian, appeared as the result of interbreeding British and domestic short-hairs (alley cats) with Persians to increase some genetic diversity. The Himalayan coloration in Persians is definitely from interbreeding with the Siamese.
BTW, I’m actually surprised that the field-type golden hasn’t become suddenly popular with the Bush’s baked bean dog. But nowadays, I bet most people don’t know that “Duke” is a golden retriever.
I guarantee that if the right lines of poodle and golden were used in the cross, you could produce an excellent working dog. I think goldens could also stand some interbreeding with field Labs, just to make them more competitive as “duck dogs.” There is a yellow Lab that produced some goldens in the years of the interbred category for retrievers. It’s not talked about much, but this happened. (I think that this Lab had some flat-coats in her ancestry, which is why the coats were very much like goldens).
I’ve trained with some great hunt-test poodles, and they certainly can do the work. I love watching them in the water. They have a very different swimming style than goldens, labs or flatcoats. Almost like swans, approaching their retrieve. I’ll send you a few photos.
Regarding outcrosses — you need to know a great deal about the health history of the dogs that you’re bringing into a population. The problem with outcrosses (and believe me, I’m all for genetic diversity) is that an outcross into genetically small population may bring more than just diversity into that population. Flatcoats are now dealing with PRA and Progressive Nephropathy, two conditions that were unheard of thirty years ago. Is that the result of some accidental (or intentional) breedings that were represented at purebred fcrs? Some people think so.
It’s possible about that last part of those diseases coming from other breeds. However, you might also like some of those low cancer genes that appear in some lines of golden, where the dogs live well into their teens. I would like some more genetic diversity int he field lines of golden, and not have to use the show dogs as an outcross all the time.
I’ve only seen poodles work upland game. I’ve never seen one swim. Dogs of the poodle type though are ancestral to all water dogs. The poodle just happens to be the one that has survived in large numbers. The St. John’s water dog is most likely derived from the Portuguese water dog, crossed with setters, spaniels, and what ever else could survive in colonial Newfoundland. It’s not like it’s a far out breed. I wonder if this difference in locomotion has to do with the fact that poodles have docked tails and thick coats, which is unlike any of the other breeds used in this work, except for Boykin spaniels (which I’m sure aren’t trialed or tested.)
I don’t, however, think it’s actually possible to breed out most genetic disorders. All you can do is reduce likelihood of it happening. You could never, through eugenics, breed them out of people. I really don’t think we’d ever be able to do so.
Poodle’s swimming style is VERY different than other retrievers. I think it’s a combination of structural differences and attitude. I’ve probably watched a dozen poodles over the years, and they all have similar swimming styles.
If you clip a poodle down, it’s almost like a greyhound.
What I find interesting is that, historically, there were heavily built poodles (which is what I think the Russian retriever actually was).
In Germany, there were two types of poodle. One was the water poodle, the ancestral stock of what we call poodles. And there were sheep poodles, which I’ve heard are not extinct but are very rare. The herding poodle is older than the water poodle, although it is a bit different dog. But I’ve always maintained that all of the old-type water dogs were from a herding ancestor not unlike the puli. The Spanish water dog, for example, is primarily a herding poodle-type but it can be used as a water dog and as a waterfowl dog. This breed was known by the locals as the Turkish dog. Well, in Medieval Western Europe, Hungarian people were often called Turks (misidentification).
I’ve seen poodles flush and retrieve before, and they aren’t exactly as birdy as they retrievers and spaniels are. However, they are such eager dogs that they do it anyway.
Very swan-like. These are undocked.
who cares if it was bred in a puppy mill or not, the only thing that matters is how cute the dogs are. Personally I think this type of dog is adorable, especially the closer they are to a golden retriever.
It does matter. You cannot produce quality dogs at high volume. The amount of socialization that a dog needs to be a good pet cannot be replicated at high volume. I can buy an 8 week old retriever pup that is introduced to feathers, fur, and gunshot, and knows some commands. Its parents will have genetic and health screenings. If you try to do that at a mass level, you will find the costs are too high to do it.
If we kept factory farm pigs as pets, we’d be complaining. Those animals aren’t selected for temperament or good structure at all. They are just selected for meat quality and productive ability. Mass produced dogs are just selected for their ability to produce. If you were aware of how many genetic diseases exist in some many breeds and strains of dogs, you wouldn’t be so cavalier about it.
Cuteness is very often a liability in a working dog. The more it looks like a puppy the less likely it will exhibit predatory motor patterns– it’s called neoteny or pedomorphosis. I really couldn’t care less whether a dog is cute or not.
I’m looking for high retrieving instinct, high biddability, gentle temperament, and good working conformation. You can’t mass-produce that. And I really don’t care if the dog is cute or not or whether it has white on it or brown lips, nose, and eye rims.
And then, of course, you have your Irish Water Spaniel. I am constantly asked if mine is a “doodle” of some kind.
Most IWS breeders are doing their best to not get into a separate show line and field line. The upcoming IWS Specialty in May 2009 includes both conformation and WC/WCX trials. My boy’s mom is both a Ch. and a Master Hunter.
http://patricedodd.wordpress.com/
That’s excellent for IWS. At one time, they were the most numerous retrieving breed in the US.
In Britain, they are considered among their “endangered breeds.” But really, having lots of stupid people breeding them isn’t an asset. We have too much of that in my breed. It’s better that this breed remain in the hands of those who really appreciate it.
Hello the picture you used is from my website http://www.goldendoodles.jeremyinc.com/ could you please directly link it to my website and maybe leave a link to my site as well?
Better yet instead of hosting the image, you could just use the url path of the image on my site. Thanks
Thanks for putting the photo source up. For some reason if you search for goldendoodles on google images your picture comes up first. The image on my site used to.
[…] blog. He does a lot of research and writing on the history of dog breeds. Check out his post on Goldendoodles where he discusses how ‘not all Goldendoodles are ‘doodly’. He […]
I am very impressed on the logic, factual and non biased nature of Retrieverman’s opinion on “Doodles”. I myself have been involved in breeding Goldendoodles, in the hopes of producing a non to low shed hybrid both for upland and water retrieving. So many of his and others on this blog, ideas’ are so insightful and helpful. I am very happy to have found this sight with such knowledgeable individuals on genetics, principles of purpose and the “guts” to give opinions based on these facts.
I will being encouraging others who are interested, as well as my customers, to view this this site. There are many of us who are not interested in the “fluff and bunny” of these doodles, but rather the temperament, conformation and utility of these dogs.
Thank You!
Ellie….The Hypoallergenic factor is a big if on a 50/50 doodle mix. You also get a flip of the coin in terms of looks. You require a 75/25 doodle to golden to maintain the mythical hypoallergenic factor.
But then the look on the latter split will definitely look Poodle over Golden.
Very interested in all the genetics of this. I have a quesiton though? Does everybody wanting a doodle want a hunting dog??? I myself do not especially. I want a calm, friendly, non-aggressive that my 2 year old grandchild can poke and prod and i don’t have to worry about them getting bit. I want a dog i can take with me and who loves people and would rather be with me or my children than racing off chasing a rabbit or a bird. I want a true pet. I think that’s what the majority of people want. Health and temperament are very important. “Fluff and bunny” are not. Once most people have owned one of these dogs i think it’s true to them that if they turned green, they’d still love them to death. The majority of people that i know do not hunt their dogs.
It depends on what you mean by calm.
I use the term tractable. A tractable dog can learn to be calm in the house.
I don’t want a dog that is a lump.
I don’t think they make good pets either.
Many, good hunting dogs are a pleasure in the house-hold. Doodles are no exception. Some temperaments are better suited to quiet family atmosphere. Some are more spirited. No not all doodles are made to hunt.
I have two, one is a lovable “lump” waiting for the next child to rub her belly, ( oh by the way, she is 1/2 English Cream Retriever and 1/2 golden doodle AND sheds very little..). The other, an F1 can hit the water a hundred times and not give up….my groomer who’s husband is a trainer, loves the later. His wife adores the first. My Standard Poodle who loves to point upland game,( not a good swimmer), is a very quiet dog in the house.
I do exercise my dogs, the Poodle and F1 more. A few of miles on the bike when weather permits, helps keep them in shape and take the edge off. No not all “doodles” are hunters, but a good exercise routine is good for any dog, and will help any dog be a better house pet.
P.S. Thank you on the comment about cut tails…although my Poodle’s rib cage is quite narrow, I’m sure a tail would help!!! Something to remember in the future.
One of the posters above said where will the crossbreed programme be in ten years. The answer to that is relatively simple. Those that have worked will still be with us, those that haven’t worked will have disappeared. Somebody like me who has an interest in pointers hasn’t the right to be too dogmatic about cross breeding. The fox hound/harrier cross is well documented for stamina and the greyhound cross is in evidence, probably for speed, even though I have seen little documentation to support this cross. Having said that I am generally against the cross breeding of working breeds and the reason for this is that jobs, types of work, modes of hunting aren’t changing and until we decide that we have a new form of work we don’t really need another breed. I wouldn’t be against a cross breeding programme to resolve a conformation problem. If it was thought that a cross with a similar breed, say a dalmation/pointer cross could help resolve hip displaysia then as long as it was done in the open with Kennel Club approval I would be all for it.
I’m not that happy either, especially with first generation crosses, of breeds to fulfill non working needs. When the crossbred pup that you were expecting to be the size of a cocker spaniel turns out to be the size of a labrador and to hate the world and anything in the world with a passion where to you go. Try it again to see what happens and probably fail again? The breeds we have today were created and fixed by the use of culling to an extent that would no longer be considered acceptable and I can’t concieve of a programme to create another breed that doesn’t go hand in hand with ruthless culling of substandard specimens even, or maybe that should be especially colour combinations or coat types.
I’m enjoying reading this discussion on poodle mixes. To throw in my two cents- we got our first cross labradoodle 6 years ago. While he sheds a little- he does not irritate my husbands allergies or asthma. The dog is big, strong and athletic in the woods, and quiet and devoted in the house. He is a strong swimmer and a fabulous retriever. He has been a fabulous dog for us.
I recently took ownership of a doodle from my son who had gotten the dog as a puppy then at 10 mo old decided it was too much for the family. The kids hated the dog who is almost 70 lbs jumping and knocking them down. So much energy pent up is not good. The first thing I did was let Mathis run for much of a whole day. After the workout he seems to be more attentive to me and not so focused on jumping, jumping, jumping. The only thing I have trouble with is the way he wants to eat socks. The day after I got him he promptly pooped out 2 baby socks. He is really sweet does growl and bark at strangers but gets along well with my other dogs. I wouldn’t recommend a doodle for families that have little time to spend with this dog they need lots of attention and suffer if they don’t get it.