The video is from blueribbongoldens.
The website for their kennel is here.
This is breeder who produced “Shuttle.”
These are her full brothers and sisters.
***
Notice the intensity of how they play with the objects. They also have a distinct spark in their eyes that you see only in really driven field dogs.
It is interesting to compare their movement with this video of English show-type goldens playing. You don’t see any of that “lupine” intensity in these pups. And these puppies are either roughly of the same age or a bit older.
The first dog I had that was of partial English show breeding played this way. I actually thought there was something wrong with her. I was expecting a little firecracker of a golden pup, not a quite little lamb.
I know that it requires more than a few minutes of video to make a fair comparison, and it is possible for a dog to be a late-bloomer and not develop his or her retrieving instincts until the age of two.
However, I think this video shows the real difference between the strains. The performance bred litters tend to show their abilities early on, although I tell you this with the caveat that some dogs mature slowly, especially goldens.
This difference between the two strains shows us something that Valerie Foss wrote about in The Ultimate Golden Retriever. She’s a breeder of show-strain dogs in the UK, and in the very early part of the book, she warns against using the show dogs in the highest level of field competition. She says, almost point-blank, that you almost have to purchase field stock if you’re ever going to get anywhere. There are exceptions to this rule, however, and in American show lines, in particular, you can run across a few gems.
This same sentiment appears in Tom Quin’s The Working Retrievers. On the section about the golden, the author says to pick only a golden from working lines, because they begin to show the behaviors sooner. Let me point this out, you really don’t train a dog to retrieve. You merely shape inherited tendencies to show a specific predatory motor pattern through socialization and operant conditioning.
Strangely, he says that if you want to show one, you just get a field bred one and fatten him up!
Now, there are dogs that are force-broken to retrieving. I don’t have any expertise at this, because I believe this motor pattern is the definition of a retriever. I would rather the motor patterns and drives exist in the dog as a matter of inheritance, but there are dogs that need this training, usually this method is applied only to.pointing breeds. James Lamb Free, who wrote the seminal work, Training Your Retriever, advised against force-breaking in retrievers.
You do know that BlueRibbon is Shuttle’s breeder? She’s Blue Ribbon Adventure Shuttle ** SH WCX
The litter shown is from a repeat breeding of Shuttle’s sire & dam.
I didn’t know this!
The sire of that litter is an impressive dog!
So Shuttle is out of Ditto?
I didn’t know this.
I sent Blue Ribbon’s link to you ages ago. I guess it makes sense that you’re fond of the video.
I don’t know why I forgot the name of Shuttle’s breeder.
I’m so sorry.
I’m sure there’s an exception or two somewhere, but I think virtually every competition retriever–hunt test or field trial–is now force-fetched if they are going on to levels that require a blind retrieve and multiple marks. I was resistant to the whole idea at first, for sure, but now I’m a convert, because I just love playing the games at that level. There’s nothing like being next to one of these dogs doing what it was bred and trained to do at the highest levels. Not that a person can’t make their own decision on force-fetching–and not every dog needs it for its owners purposes with it, I’m sure.
And I’m with you… genetics first! But a (properly) force-fetched retriever with lots of inherent drive is a beautiful thing–driven, but controlled (though sometimes barely!); stylish, but precise; sort of like a sports car. A force-fetched retriever with no drive is an accurate but sad, piggy thing. But force-fetched or not, IMO there’s no mistaking that prey drive that makes a great retriever! Those are great comparison and contrast videos you’ve got there.
(Love your blog, by the way–I’m completely hooked.)
I’m glad you like the blog.
Here’s an article that talks about the forced retrieve: http://www.versatiledogs.com/ask/ret43.html I think everyone should look at and make up their minds about it.
I had a golden that could do blind retrieves and multiple marks, and was never force-broken. She was a happy accident that came out of a newspaper ad. She never hard-mouthed (goldens aren’t normally hardmouthed). She was trained according to the James Lamb Free and Bill Tarrant books, because those were the only books I could find on it.
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=220017
Kind of surprised you haven’t done your research….
Yes, and I was told who her breeder was two months ago! I can’t believe that slipped my mind.
For some, it’s worth it; for others, not so much; I can certainly appreciate that. I’d say I took about 2 months total with both my dogs, most of it more an extension of obedience than what most would perceive as “force.” I still say, the drive’s got to be there for it to be worth it. My first “pet” Lab was the love of my life–pretty much untrained, but crazy for the water and retrieving as far as I could throw a bumper and scaring up birds when he got the chance–also out of a newspaper ad. DNA is a marvelous thing.
From F-n-L “the drive’s got to be there for it to be worth it.”
Absolutely! Force-fetch is an option for training, and is a valuable tool. But if the dog doesn’t have his or her heart in the game, it’s unfair to the dog to force them. A dog that doesn’t love the game will be a lackluster performer, even if forced. A dog that is a “born and bred” retriever can benefit from force breaking. There are other methods of training, and several e-mail lists and websites for those that don’t want to force. That’s a valid choice. But many owner/handlers who start off with the “cookie-cookie” training methods end up with at least a modified force fetch method if they want to go beyond simple tests made up of four single retrieves.
What venues & where are your running your dogs, F-n-L?
The way I see it, some dogs really need it to learn how to grip the birds properly– not too soft and not too hard.
And if you use that method properly, you get a dog that can handle birds well.
But if done poorly, you get a cowed golden that goes on strike.
Hi Patti S–I have a six year old MH Lab, he’s my first trained dog; we may run a qualifying or two this year; and a two year old flat-coat (I’ve had her for a year–long story) that I’m not sure whether to run in junior or senior this spring. I guess I’m no longer a total rookie, but still a novice, for sure. I’m in Ohio.
Any training technique should be designed for the individual dog. Many field trainers (novice & pros alike) use too much force, and end up with a dog that shuts down or has no joy in the game.
A force-fetch program is rarely about proper grip. It’s more about teaching the dog to fetch whatever he’s sent for, to hold that thing through whatever terrain or cover or water he encounters on the way back, and to deliver promptly to hand.
Some dogs prefer pheasants over ducks. Or mallards over teal. Or birds over bumpers. Or plastic over feathers. The dog needs to know that if he is sent after an object, he doesn’t get to choose whether to fetch and retrieve that object. I’ve seen dogs that haven’t been force-fetched blink (refuse to pick up) a bumper if they’ve already picked up a duck during a training series – “No, mom, I’ll just wait until someone throws another bird!” The properly force-fetched dog is unlikely to do that.
Some dogs naturally drop a bird when exiting the water. Some like to do a victory circle or two before returning to the handler. Some don’t want to come back with their prize at all.
There are other ways to solve those problems, but a well-designed force fetch program is commonly used.
Yes, a retriever should want to retrieve naturally, and should retrieve birds that are fit for the table when delivered to their handler. Many dogs can get through junior without being forced. Some can get through senior. But by the time they get to master or are running in field trials, it’s rare to see a successful dog that hasn’t had some sort of force-fetch program.
Good answer, Patti. My Lab is a crazy-birdy; he’s also very motivated by sound (quacks, gun-shots). My flat-coat is very motivated by movement, and also wants ANYTHING that moves in her mouth, fast. Force fetch (when it’s done right) should bring obedience to what and when to retrieve. The thing that’s tricky, though, is that without having and keeping a strong INDEPENDENT desire to make retrieving decisions, the obedience in the retrieve isn’t worth it. I’m super lucky to have met some really good (IMO) amateurs and pros to keep me from mucking up a couple nice dogs trying to figure it all out.
Patti, are you located somewhere we would have bumped into each other? The retriever world is pretty small, isn’t it?
It is a small world, Flattie-n-Labbie, and if you continue to run hunt tests with your flatcoat, I’m sure we’ll run into each other. I’m in California (You can click on my name at the top of this comment to visit our website), but do travel to most FCRSA specialties, although we probably won’t make the one this year.
I know quite a few flatcoat folks from the Midwest and East Coast. When we do make the specialties, we usually arrive several days before the events start to field train.
Perhaps we’ll see each other at a flatcoat specialty or other field some day in the future. The 2010 FCRSA specialty is in Indiana…
Enjoy your flatcoat. I look forward to hearing about her accomplishments.
Ah–I’m sure our paths will cross! In fact, I’m absolutely sure I recognize your name–we must know people in common. I have a Gamekeepers/Coastalight dog. Looking forward to meeting you in 2010. :)
–Greta
flattie-n-Labbie, we know a LOT of people in common. Your girl was quite a cutie! I’m sure you’ll do well with her.
I’ve got a series of photos of her mother at the 2006 Master National. They’re at
Judy, Wendy & Frances are all friends.
Thanks for the photo link! Definite resemblance. It was great to meet Frances and train with her a bit last summer.
It’s such a fluke I have her; I swear I’m a Lab gal!
Just thought id say a quick hello,really enjoy reading your blog,I to share the love of the ‘origonal’ type golden, I have a field type myself, she is called mango and is almost 7, you have mentioned a link in one of your posts to an english working goldens page, which contains a picture of FT Ch little marston chorus of Holway, she apears five generations back in mango’s pedigree, It was really nice to her in a photo.
I have a picture of mango as a pup which I feel really sums up that ‘spark in thier eyes’
here is the link- http://i352.photobucket.com/albums/r331/emmaluvsmango/babymango-1.jpg
Holway lines are really influential in US field dogs.
I’ve found lots over here descend from Holway Barty.
http://www.holwayroger.at/june_atkinson.htm
More on the Holways:
http://www.thegoldenretrieverclub.co.uk/workja.html
Yes it does seem they are very influencial, I live in the UK and I didn’t realise how influencial the holways were over in the US aswell. Mango has also Holway ruby and Holway corbiere four generations back and just three generations back she has Holway Marie.
Most US dogs come from Holway Barty:
http://www.topbrass-retrievers.com/barty.htm
I’ve been reading the blogs about retrieving Golden Retriever. Bella, our Golden we gave up is a naturally retrieving golden. She lives to run and retrieve. You literally have to push her away because she doesn’t want to stop. She will drop what she has on command. She would have been great in the field. She is very fast and agile, too. I doubt she will get the chance to run and retrieve as she did when she lived with us. It is my hope, that we will get another Golden, this time a male that will get along with our other dog, a female. My husband, a hunter would like a gun dog. We have a friend that trains Golden Field Dogs. It is a shame we had to give our Bella up, but she was attacking her house mate all the time.
I’ve been enjoying the writings here on your blogs. Thanks for the postings.
Aggression is getting to be a problem in golden retrievers. It’s a sad fact.
I find that female dogs of any breed tend to fight each other more than males. Once the males have established themselves, they really don’t fight much at all. The worst fights I’ve seen are between females.
While neither are normally very aggressive, I’ve found that most male goldens are better with other dogs. Now, I have a young female who thinks that all other dogs were put on this earth to play with, but it’s possible to get a dog aggressive female golden.
It is truly a shame that she turned out to be as aggressive as she is with other dogs, male or female. Any dog that approached our house she would either attack immediately, or attack it when it approached the porch. She had no fear of any dog of any size. She is the opposite with people. She loves to be loved and she be near her humans. She shows no aggression with taking away food, or objects. Her beef is only with other dogs. She used to love to play with her female house mate until this past year. I was told that is her age 3.5 and that point in life where she wanted to be the alpha female. I don’t understand why she didn’t stop attacking once she gained that position? Is there any way to determine if a dog will be dog aggressive when it is a puppy? Do you oppose female:female households? I brought in another older puppy today as a play date for our shell shocked dog. She was afraid of the puppy who is very submissive. Our dog seems to have more fear of other dogs now inside the house where the attacks were the worst. Do you think play dates with friendly dogs are a good idea and if so should they be on neutral grounds, or is it a good idea to have them inside our house to show her she will not be attacked to help her get over her fear?
My sister is bringing a male golden puppy over on Thursday, I wonder if my dog will think this is a mini Bella? I would like to get another dog. I also like the idea of play dates for our dog, too.
That’s very unusual behavior.
In working goldens, aggression with other dogs is something that is very strongly bred away from. After all, during a trial, they are required to work in the presence of strange dogs. Valerie Foss, the British golden retriever expert, claims that she can carry a dozen goldens of both sexes in the back of her vehicle during a trial. Usually, only one or two of these dogs is from the same household.
But then, there are always anomalies.
Generally, the really aggressive goldens aren’t from working lines.