Here’s a video of a European show golden with a Show Gundog Working Certificate.
Now, that all sounds good.
But then I looked up what a Show Gundog Working Certificate actually was.
The KC awards a Show Championship, but no gun dog can be a full champion unless it passes this working test. Originally, they had to be run in actual trials, but now, they get to do the sort of amateur behavior. These certificates are given at trials or a special show gun dog working certificate test.
The retrieving behavior tested during this test is pretty much remaining steady to a line and retrieving a dummy from the land and the water. It is the same as the true trial dogs. However, these dogs aren’t expected to beat the performance bred dogs, which they would have a very hard time doing. Instead, they are looking for a modicum of instinct that has been polished through some training. These tests are a wonderful way of getting more dogs in trials, so that the actual performance-bred dogs can clobber them. Brilliant move.
It does take a lot of training to keep a dog in a line. That really is impressive. The fact that these dogs have enough retrieving instinct to be trained to do this work at this novice level is amazing. But it doesn’t disprove a very simple truth: Performance bred dogs are better at this work than these dogs are. You might find some dogs in the European show-lines that really can do the work. These dogs should be bred from. We need dogs with retrieving instinct to be bred. However, it doesn’t change the fact that their bodies are built incorrectly to really do the work. It also doesn’t change the fact that the very light colors are the result of fad breeding, which started around 1960. The original colors were light gold to mahogany. Some of the early dogs were light golds with cream shadings (like my dog), but none were so pale as to be mistaken for white.
The fact that this dog’s owner says it’s so hard for a show golden in the UK to make the grade here is an admission of what I know and what most serious retriever people know. The European show golden is not the best example of a working dog.
While they were breeding for light color, bone, and blockiness, they forgot to also breed for biddability and drive. And that’s why I’m very wary of these lines. The vast majority of these dogs are not selected for their retrieving instinct, and even if they have it, they may not be properly built to really do working gun dog work.
I think she stuttered then hesitated when ask about the difference? And she didn’t even finish the answer. ?????
Yes, she did.
Because we do know there are differences, as would anyone who has ever been around these dogs.
Now, I will say that she’s very concerned with breeding a trainable dog.
That’s a good thing.
I’ve seen several dogs of that type that don’t take direction well.
I don’t know anything but a quick skim of the KC rules for working certificates–I’ve got to say it’s disappointing that a dog can pass without having to pick up a bird.
In the US, working certificates are under the aegis of breed clubs. In general, I think it’s a nice thing worth supporting. I’ve seen them, proofread the flat-coat rule book for a friend, will run them with my flat-coat this summer, and I’m tentatively scheduled to be part of a judging panel later this year. I think they’re a do-able introduction to field work and demonstrate instinct and a bit of trainability.
Even though it’s an approachable test for an amateur rookie and can be passed by a dog that may have only a pretty basic retrieve drive, it’s a measurable step up from saying, “My dog doesn’t mind loud noises and he’ll fetch his toys on command.”
Do I think they’re the ultimate measure of field talent? Um, no… But they are what they are, and they’re a good thing so long as folks don’t think of them as the be-all-end-all or final stamp of approval of some sort. I like them, and commend people who put the WC or WCX on their dogs.
They just have to pick up a dummy or a Dokken.
However, they do a lot of that in the UK, because animal rights extremists would go crazy if they used birds.
Which is a terrible shame. There is a big difference in an instinct and some rudimentary training to pick up, retrieve, and deliver a dummy or Dokken versus pick up, retrieve, and deliver a BIRD.
These are bird dogs, not plastic dogs.
In Europe, not just a bird– they are required to retrieve hares and rabbits, too.
So basically the end all to just how good the dog you get is a result of how much you put into it. I don’t expect a puppy at 8 to 14 weeks to blind retrieve. But certainly to be aware of its name, and some basic commands. That said the rest is up to the client. If they ultimately want a good field dog…THEY TRAIN IT. They encourage it to do what it already does well and they reinforce the things that need improvement. Does that somehow not sit well with your reasoning. I suppose the dog is suppose to be born knowing everything. I’m not limited in the DIVERSE scope of people I know and call my friends…. from all walks of life. So perhaps that gives me a perspective with an advantage since I don’t limit the possibilities for me, my children or my dogs.
Your measures are fine for you. I suppose a true working field hunter might set his sights a bit higher. Maybe even put more into the dog than to just satisfy some trial judges rules. My dogs will Panic when a child is crying outside, and they damn well make me sure of their need to go outside and investigate the situation. And they’ll retrieve my kids, pulling at their shirts if they feel their is a problem. I’d say the measure of my dogs and their abilities suits me and many others very well. And OMG they don’t have a title. Oh well. I guess they’ll just have to settle for a responsible owner with their best interest in mind. Imagine that?
A test of a true judge would be to know when to turn the judging off and just keep an open mind. Hmmmmm. I gotta go now and play fetch with my pack.
If you’re talking to me, I have no idea what prompted that or what in the world you are talking about.
That was for Sengimage, BTW.
I am confused.
I would love to see how a rabbit/hare hunt works with retrievers. I’ve seen posed still photos and paintings, and I’ve had it described, but I just can’t picture it.
F&L You quoted words which seem to echo you judging me. SO I don’t think you’re confused….. maybe avoiding embarrassment? Call it how ever you wish to judge it. I say you know exactly what you meant by your statements and you clearly understand my rebuttal. I love your wit and your engaging commentaries and rebuttals. And some of the reason for me loving this blog is due in no small part to folks like yourself. It keeps me grounded knowing the world is full of so many different schools of thought. And I respect that wholeheartedly.
I was a bit flippantly paraphrasing what I hear every time I do drills in the park.
I’ll do it again: “My dog would be great at that–you should see him fetch a tennis ball. And he ain’t afraid of loud noises, either.” Big difference between that and a retrieve of a bird in the field. Believe it or not, up to you.
Not judging you, BTW–trying to ignore you.
But I do see where you got that from, now. Not embarrassed about it in the least.
Carry on.
There’ve been WC and WCX tests at the poodle national now for several years – finally. And, yes, they use real birds for the tests. It’s a start….
Poodles are in the wrong group. They need to be out of the Nonsporting group and placed where they belong– with their close relatives, the retrievers and water spaniels.
So at field tests do they actually use a starter pistol? I thought it was a whistle? What loud noises would they need to be accustomed to?
Yes.
In British trials, they actually retrieve birds that are shot with shotguns.
The whistle is for controlling the dog at a distance.
I’ll show you:
The whistle makes the dog stop and turn around and look for direction, and then the other whistle tells the dog to pick it up.
There’s a big difference between working certificates, hunting tests, and the various flavors of field trial for retrievers. They are all different. Different rules, different emphasis on what abilities are tested.
There are some VERY nice working poodles that I’ve seen at hunt tests–sire/son I think, white or cream I don’t remember. Very nice dogs. A shame there isn’t a way to put working poodles in with the retrievers and spaniels group.
I remember chatting with the owner, and her bemoaning the fact that it’s just too hard to try to campaign for titles on both ends because the show ring is so demanding of time and grooming.
Anyway, lovely, talented dogs.
“So basically the end all to just how good the dog you get is a result of how much you put into it. I don’t expect a puppy at 8 to 14 weeks to blind retrieve.”
Interesting. :P I expect puppies to be going out to a target and waiting further direction by about 12 weeks BUT I’m not teaching it in a hunting context, just for agility and obedience- and targeting, recall, and self control are the first three things I teach a pup, interspersed with sits, leash manners, and doorway zen.
I don’t expect a dog at 6 months to be doing any blind retrieves!
It’s harder to build steadiness in a dog if it’s retrieving at level early on.
Steadiness is really important in retrievers. You want them quiet when they are waiting to be sent. And you don’t want them breaking before their name is called.
I can’t find it in my heart to allow a pup outdoors in my area without at least its third set of vaccinations. We’ve experienced a bout of PArvo with our FCR Bitch before her third round of shots. So since then, we teach all the basics indoors which isn’t very conducive to retrieving. But “come”, “sit” and “stay” are certainly a part of the regimen, along with crate training, leash breaking and house breaking and tons of socializing.
But, after the third set of shots, My pups are out there retrieving. The ones that went to their new homes are subject to the training the new owners provide. If that happens before the third round of shots its totally up to them. The ones I care for wait just a bit longer. About 14 to 16 weeks.
GREAT NEWS. I Now have another sister Kennel here in the United States that is on board with the outcross program and future breeding of their FCR with ours. So along with our Sister Kennels in Sweden, Finland and Norway. We’re set for more Chatties and Flatties and a reintroduction of a future hybrid we will call the Wavy Coated Retriever in honor of the FCR and GR’s historic past.
I consider this a milestone for the FCR and a major get under the skin of all the breeders who just don’t get it. And who loathe me. ;-)
If you’re going to do this, you need to make doubly certain that your dogs have health checks.
When you recombine these lines, there is a chance that you’ll ge throwbacks to the old strains.
Something like how the Eurasier is a recreation of the old Eurasian spitz that followed my ancestors out of Asia into Europe.
But there is also a chance that you could be breeding in some golden health problems that flat-coats don’t currently have.
Goldens have to have their hearts cleared.
So be very careful.
Absolutely, health checks of their dogs and our dogs are completely a part of the deal. We aren’t back yard breeders ya know. :-)
Another FCR Breeder Close to us with absolutely different lines than our own will be dropping their bitch off next month. And the official FCR outcross program begins. Our big American boys go for PenHip exams this month. Our FCR Bitch Is waiting on our Yellow boy to be ready.
Then we will be sending a Chattie out of the next litter to them and one overseas. This is good. I haven’t reached out to any GR breeders. Yet.
But, we do have some other breeds\breeders in the planned future mix already on board. I’ll say more as things progress just to avoid more nasty e-mail storms to those participating with us. The breed club fanatics tend to send waves of nasty e-mails everytime I make an announcement.
I’ll make one announcement that I’m thrilled about. We’re going to name one of our new FCR dogs coming to us from a fellow kennel…. Rockyhill. in honor of the area it came from…..RockyHill New Jersey. ;-)
Now we’re even entertaining buying property in RockyHill PA. right next to Strasburg. While the market is favoring the buyer.
i want a dog litle
Ola Soi sonia, tengo un perrito mui bonito!! es chihuahueño pero tengo un problemita…. y poqo asqeroso!! se come la caca entonses nose xq, me podrian ayudar? esqe cuando le doi besitos le huele la boca y un dia me encontre un pedazo de caca en la boca, despues de qe lo avia besado…. Pliis ayudenme se los agradecere..!!