These dogs are not that common in the US and Canada.
They aree NOT the result of crossing a golden retriever with a border collie. If you cross a black skinned golden with a black and white border collie, you will get black puppies with some white on them.
The collie-type is a very old strain, and it is possible that BC’s of this color are a source for the golden retriever and yellow Labrador coloration. After all, border collies are, at least partially, derived from the collie dogs of the Scottish/English Borders, which is where an important ancestor of both the golden retriever and the yellow Labrador originated. The Tweed water dog/Tweed water spaniel may have had some collie ancestors.
Further, it is well-known that wavy-coats were crossed with collies, some of which could have been of this color.
Now, this color is not the same as the sable you see in rough and smooth collies. If you cross a golden retriever with a sable collie, you will get dogs that are mostly black. This “true red” color doesn’t exist in the rough and smooth collie gene pool. It does exist in shelties and BC’s, and I’m pretty sure it can be found in English shepherds, too.
I should say here that I’ve never understood why liver colored border collies and Dobermanns are called “reds.” They don’t look even remotely red to me!
Well I don’t *know* border collies, but that dog looks to me like what’s called a clear sable english shepherd.
That’s a new one–
And to think–the word sable in the English language refers to black in every other context but collie-types and that one species of marten.
Color and pattern naming is proof positive that no one with an ounce of scientific discipline had anything to do with the classification of dogs, at least in the show community where I think most of these names took hold.
I think they enjoyed making up names for colors and patterns (and confusing the two) just as much as they enjoyed making up bogus breed histories.
I’ve been trying to narrow down an official classification for sable and yes, almost everyone under the sun uses it for BLACK. Not a patterning, not banding of hairs with different colors…. solid and complete black. Ugh.
The Devil was always called his “Sable Majesty.”
I don’t think he looked like Lassie.
Here’s a clear sable English shepherd on the more yellow end of the spectrum:
http://tinyurl.com/cmhwo3
Friday is Pip’s niece, cousin to both Rosie and Moe.
Both of her parents are tricolors. Apparently her sire (Pip’s full brother) throws a clear sable or two in every litter.
I understand that the color is genetically yellow, and is the same allele as the golden retriever color.
I have seen very deep red clear sables. These are not “red” like Aussies; they have black pigment on eye rims, lips, and noses. (The noses can fade, often seasonally, same as with Labs and goldens.) “Red” dogs have dark brown or reddish pigment in place of the black.
I agree that the terminology is very weird. No idea where it came from, other than “out of the collie world.”
Of course, German shepherds with the agouti coat are also called sable.
Sable is an old term for black. Originally the familiar color so common in collies was “sabled”…i.e., as if brushed with a black overlay. It was an adjective. With continued use, it became a noun describing the combination of yellow/red hair with black tippings. The “fawn” of the Belgian Tervuren is actually sable (with a black mask).
“Clear sable” should be reserved for dogs that are born sable/d but which lose the black pigment as they mature, and end up showing none (or very little) and resembling an ee red/yellow example. Many basenjis are such: they are born a mousy color, but quickly “clear” to the usual red. Some collies do as well: they are sometimes called “golden sable”.
For some reason tiny url doesn’t like to link to one photo.
Try this: http://picasaweb.google.com/HHoulahan/ReferencePix?authkey=Gv1sRgCL2phsTHrLXICQ#5344050986544340866
A few years ago the folks on a collie email list were in a uproar over a woman who was intent on creating a hot new designer breed: “Golden Collies” (Golden Retriever x sable Rough Collie). Unfortunately for her plan (but fortunately for Goldens & Collies), she didn’t understand that while superficially a GR and sable collie look the same color*; they are really not the same; the genes behind them are totally different and when crossed, the resulting pups are always black with a little bit of white trim (toes, chest, tail tip). Big black hairy pups just did not fit the “brand name” – i.e. Golden Collies should be Gold not black. IIRC she was slow learner and bred three litters before giving it up. She never did understand why it didn’t work.
* yes, to anyone remotely observant, the differences between a GR coat and a sable collie are fairly obvious but these distinctions eluded her. She was of the “color-mixing” school of genetics (example: cross a white dog with a red dog and you should get pink puppies) and so cross a goldish-tan dog with goldish-tan dog and you have to get goldish tan pups. She was also of the “a la carte” school of breeding, where the breeder can pick and choose what traits will be inherited in the pups (if I recall her sales pitch: the Golden Collie would have the loyalty of the Golden and the intelligence of the collie (I may have the details switched – I do remember being surprised to learn that either breed had a lock on those traits), the grace & elegance of the collie and the puppy-faced cuddliness of the golden yadda yadda yadda. )
If you breed a golden retriever with any breed that is sable, agouti, “wild boar color,” or brindle, my experience is that you get black puppies. I had a “golden boxer”– accidental mating– that included a brindle boxer as sire. All the pups in the litter were black.
I’ve actually seen these dogs. I visited her website. The dogs looked a lot like flat-coated retrievers or the ancestral wavy-coated retriever or maybe a long-haired St. John’s water dog. They looked more like retrievers than collies, but they were BLACK or sometimes black and tan. Collie-types were an ancestor of the retrievers (in fact, one of my golden sources clames that “Nous” the first golden retriever was of partial collie ancestry).
Loyalty of the golden?
I sure hope not.
They have many, many admirable qualities.
And will forget you ever existed for any stranger with candy. Candy optional.
May as well advertise “the athleticism of the pug” or “the low-shed German shepherd coat.”
I’ve had only one golden that could be called loyal.
They like people too much to be loyal.
My neighbors dog is similar to the dogs you describe. She looks like a border collie, but the coloring is red and white. Here she is: http://mythreepups.blogspot.com/2009/06/giving-my-camera-eye.html
When I was growing up (late ’60s/early 70s) in Western PA we had a neighbor with a rough collie who was the clear yellow-gold with black nose. Most of the other rough collies around were the more typical sables.
More recently a friend has a yellow & white BC-Aussie mix. I don’t remember the exact breeding behind the dog so I don’t know if he was half and half or (I think more likely with that color) 3/4 BC, 1/4 Aussie.
See http://www.ashgi.org/color/red_aussies.htm for pictures of different shades of red Aussies. ASCA standard describes the allowable colors as “the recognized colors are blue merle, red (liver) merle, solid black, and solid red (liver) all with or without white markings and/or tan (copper) points with no order of preference.” Arguably, then, dark red is preferable to the lighter shades. Red should have liver pigment on nose, eyerims, etc.
Some of these reds might be very dark mahogany e/e’s, which would be the same color as the Irish setter, golden retriever, the Australian red border collie, “clear sable” English shepherd, and yellow Labrador. The brown skin is b/b, so you could have a few eebb’s. I have a very hard time distinguishing between mahogany with brown skin and certain shades of a color we gun dog people call liver, which is always with brown skin.
Have these been tested for the genes that cause the color?
I knew a solid black Aussie that had a litter with a golden retriever. Some of the puppies were gold with black merle markings. (Two were solid black. Eight were of this coloration). I have no idea where this coloration came from. It was not– as far as I know– the somatic mutation that causes goldens to get weird black markings. These dogs looked like red or blue merles– just their base color was a rich gold like their mother and the merling was black.
Hmmm… Well the Gold BC could be any color, but because of the masking gene(ee) it hides the true color of the dog.
Looking at the nose color will tell you if the dog is Black, Blue, Red, etc. Merles will be hidden by this gene also.
We have the same thing in golden retrievers and yellow Labs. Most goldens are actually black dogs.
Now, I’ve yet to have anyone tell me why this happened.
A relative had a solid black Australian shepherd that mated with his red golden retriever.
The golden bitch had 11 puppies. Two were solid black, and the rest were a bizarre color.
They were golden red like their mother.
But they had black merling. I’ve never seen anything like it.
Most of what you describe are from recessive genes. So if GR are carrying recessive genes for masking and AS’s carry recessive genes for merles. AS’s could also have a masking gene. Soooo it will be easy to get brindle colored puppies or even puppies with very little color. Some good info on color genetics on some of the Border Collie breeder websites.
My Border collie is cream and ivory, he does not have a true white to his markings, standing next to my black and white he looks a little dingy, but he is a head turner and should do well in the show ring.
Goldens are recessive for masking– most are black dogs with that gene (e/e).
Now in gun dogs, the color called liver, chocolate, or bronze is the same color that Aussies and BC’s call “red.”
And what’s really confusing– the darkest e/e’s are mahogany Irish setters and the rare mahogany goldens. In goldens it’s possible to have bb with the ee, and if very, very dark, it’s actually possible to confuse them with liver. When goldens split off of flat-coats, it was decided to make sure that we didn’t have bb’s in our lines (we still have a few).
If you breed bbEE to a BBee, you can get BbEe, which is a black dog.
Hey there,
Great blog. After reading your post about Golden Retrievers/Border Collie, my husband and I would like your opinion as to the newest additin to our household. Through Norcal Golden Retriever Rescue, we have adopted what was purported to be a Golden mix (to be a companion to our registered Golden Retriever). This dog looks exactly like the dog in your YouTube video, with the exception that it does not have a white nose. He has white on the paws and on his chest, like a bib. He also has that extraordinary tail.
In demeanor, he is all Border Collie. He has been herding our horses, even though Norcal said, to their knowledge, he’s never been in a herding situation.
Any chance I could email a couple photos to get your opinion? And is it possible this dog might be Golden Retriever and Sheltie?
Thanks,
Anastasia
burke-miller@mindspring.com
I have been reading your comments with interest.I have a G/R cross whose mum was a g/r and dad a black border collie.The litter was 1/2 golden and 1/2 black.Last year my red and white border collie had a litter with a g/r dad and all her pups were blackand white or a sort of brindle tri as you describe.Not what i expected!!Reading your comments i realise the dad has a black nose,so allpups willl be black.Makes sense now thanks!!!
My dog Molly looks exactly like the dog in the video, except she’s a bit thinner, and the white on her feet extends right up to her (elbows? lol..) Her stomach is all white too, the blaze on her face is large, it almost looks as if her whole face except for circles around the eyes are red. Her mouth is black and pink spotted, as are her lips. Her eyes are dark brown with thick black rims, red eyelashes, and a black black nose…I was told that she was a Labrador Border Collie cross…do you think then that her father was golden? People always think that she is an australian red. Her coat is a rich golden red colour. But as i mentioned, she has a lot of white on her as well.
If she’s long-haired, she’s most likely a golden/BC cross. Short-hair is dominant in most Lab crosses.
Goldens are usually darker than yellow Labradors, but there are fox reds.
Hi
Would anyone be able to tell me what my dog is? Attached is the link for where we got her from ( a dog rescue organization ). She is the dog named Athena (now Bella) – the beautiful red dog
She has the smarts of a border collie, the shape of a collie & the loving nature of a goldie – can find very few pics of any dog that looks like her
http://ddars.com/Adopted_Pet_Album.html
Below is the only link for another dog who looks identical to Bella
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://specialdaydesign.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/keesh.jpg&imgrefurl=http://specialdaydesign.wordpress.com/&usg=__gEHQsDIE3FJi4jchyihsxrHAgyk=&h=480&w=640&sz=36&hl=en&start=285&um=1&tbnid=cznNf5D1FCs7mM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%252Bred%2B%252Bcollie%2B-border%2B%252Bdog%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D270%26um%3D1
Any help you can give me would be fantastic
Thanks
Terri
thkew@shaw.ca
What size is your dog?
I have the same colored Border Collie. Her mother was black and white and her father was a tri-colored Border Collie. Out of a litter of nine puppies, all puppies were black and white EXCEPT two….which were the cream color almost white. I took one look at her and grabbed her. As she has grown her colored has darkened into a nice strawberry blonde……the Australian Red. I feel so lucky to have found this Border Collie……she is beautiful. Everyone who sees her cannot believe how gorgeous her color is.
Your dog looks the exact same as my girl when she was a puppy. I willbet you she is 100% Border Collie.
I see this post has been going on for a few years, but I just got my dog, Kora, in August from a rescue organization. She was billed as an “Australian Shepherd”, but after about the first week, it was clear she was more likely Border Collie (looks and temperament). The color was the one thing that didn’t match being a “border collie”. I’m just doing research today and came across the “Australian Red” border collie. I also checked out the Clear Sable English Shepherd based on a comment posted here. She looks a lot like both of these dogs. What do you think? You can find photos of her at:
http://bordercrazymom.com/
Thanks for any help in solving her identity!
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