Brace yourself!
This is pretty bad…
What?
You can’t see the cruelty?
Well, you’re not thinking like a blue-nosed, know-it-all, slightly authoritarian sight hound fancier.
That bitch whelped in a dog house!
Without a blanket!
Only cruel people would do such a thing.
Well, that might sound absurd to most rational people, but that’s exactly the response that dog expert and zoologist Vladimir Beregovoy received when that photo of the bitch appeared on the web.
The bitch in question is a working strain of sight hound. Think of it as a saluki that can actually kill things. I never can keep it straight whether these dogs are Taigan, Tazi, or Saluki, so please forgive me for being less than specific.
The dog in question did give birth in a dog house. That’s what dogs have done for generations.
The bitch had a blanket, but during her labor, she took the blanket out of the house. A wooden dog house was comfortable for her. She made her nest according to her instincts and needs.
Now, these dogs are bred in a very different fashion than the established fancy rules. My guess is that these dogs don’t receive the most roseate of whelping quarters in their homelands in Central Asia. As a result, they are probably hardy enough and sensible enough to whelp without much fanfare.
The established breeders of show salukis don’t like it when breeders don’t follow their rules.
And what do they do for those who resist their hegemony?
Well, they wait around until one of those breeders breaks one of their rules. They make up their own rules about how to breed, and they change them all the time. It’s just like the cool kids in high school.
And then when you break one of those rules, they harry and hound you like you never would believe.
The words “puppy mill” and “cruelty” are bandied about. Those words actually do have a meaning, but when they are used for such frivilous purposes, they lose their punch, both symbolically and literally. I know of certain animal rightsniks who preach about “puppy millers” who “breed dozens of dogs in their backyards.” Neither the term “backyard breeder” or “puppy miller” has its punch. Some animal rightsnik merely conflated the two terms into something that has no meaning.
Hint: animal cruelty and breeding standards don’t need to be reduced to the level of a catechism. If we are to change these things, the words must have meaning.
But they do make good blugeons.
And that’s what the saluki fancy did– they used those terms to blugeon someone who wasn’t part of their group.
Of course, these dogs aren’t bred to the saluki standard. There are outcrosses– the ultimate heresy.
But such is par for the course when one tries to do things a little differently. I hope these ancient sight hounds continue to course game in this millenium as they did in the previous ones. Coursing game with sight hounds is one of the oldest ways to use a hunting dog. And considering how old some of these breeds are, they could possibly most ancient hunting dogs in the world.
But people with authoritarian personalities need to take a deep breath. It’s not your dog. It’s not even your breed. So it’s really none of your business.
Now if the pups were being eaten alive by maggots because they were whelped in a hot, humid summer field with no shelter, I would be concerned. That’s an animal welfare issue. A real one.
Adel, the dog in the photo, is a Tazi from Kazakhstan. The sire is a Tazi from St. Petersburg, Russia. So if you are a divide everything into breeds person, they Tazi. If you are a landrace person, they are Saluki, although some people consider Salukis (and Afghans, and Taigan) a kind of Tazi. Adel and Timur are registered by UKC as Salukis (yes, UKC knows they are registered as Tazi in their COO.) All that is a different and more complicated can of worms than the bare box thing.
Check out this link:
http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t102317/
I assume this gentleman is the real owner of this female (though one can never be too sure on the web). It’s an interesting thread to read. Lot’s of differing, and many ignorant opinions. Though I’m not a fan of some of the wisdom he dolls out (ie. the small dog statements) it is refreshing to see a breeder who is not coddling unhealthy dogs and is allowing nature to take it’s course in respect to non-thriving pups, whelping, etc. Though the lack of vet care leaves something to be desired…and of course, these are working dogs, and for someone looking for a pet, this would not be the ideal situation to acquire one from as there is a real lack of human interaction and socialization, which can produce a horrible temperament in a “pet” animal, but may be ideal for a “working” dog.
I’m not going to pass any judgment here.
These are very different from what I’m accustomed to. Indeed, they might be the bizarro dogs to my dogs.
My dogs are supposed to worry all the time about what you are thinking. Pups are selected and socialized work in concert with people.
These dogs are supposed to much more independent.
So I can see the value of why we have different rearing practices.
The chazhound thread is an interesting one. And you are making an assumption on the socialization and handling aspect. Just because the pups are raised outside, does not mean that they are not being handled and socialized. In fact, I believe that Vladimir states in that thread that when the pups start on solid food, he hand feeds it to them, which is handling. It is not any different to keep pups outside than to keep them in another room in the house or in a climate controlled kennel building, either the breeder will go out and handle the pups or they won’t. Then again, even having pups in the house does not assure that they are handled.
I see.
Well, I’ve never raised dogs outside, but dogs are really easy to socialize anyway.
Now, with goldens, this is what often happens. The bitches have more puppies than they have teats.
And you have to do what I call “nipple policing”– several times a day, you pull the big pups from the box to let the smaller ones nurse.
You basically have to handle them from day one. So that whole problem is taken care of by necessity.
jess: “And you are making an assumption on the socialization and handling aspect.”
Oh yes, I am making an assumption from what he has written, and I realize that assuming is not necessarily a good thing, and I realize that house raised dogs aren’t necessarily better socialized than kennel or outdoor raised dogs, however, I’m just pointing it out from a pet perspective (and of course, my own opinion). I’ve had enough experience with under socialized, temperamental, fearful dogs, that this type of raising would turn me off a pet purchase, but might turn on the next guy for a working purchase. There is a small window of opportunity to properly socialize a pup to humans to prepare them for families (pets) in the future. That window needn’t always be met for an independent hunting dog, which is what this gentleman is raising. So no critiques on his methods from me – it just wouldn’t be my first choice as a pet.
I do applaud him for going against the masses and breeding for health and vigor above all else. I wish more would take that stance in their breeding programs – dogs would be better off for it.
Interesting reading all-around.
It’s not the type of dog I’m interested in owning, and it’s not the type of puppy-raising I’d be likely to get a pup from, but I think there’s a good deal to be said for the fellow’s integrity in terms of his vision of what he wants in a dog and how he breeds and raises them.
They’re his dogs, and I’m assuming there are no co-ownership or limited registration or spay-neuter agreements at work here, so they’re his to breed. He is obviously concerned for their welfare. There is certainly no abuse or neglect evident. The bitch looks healthy, the pups look good, they seem well-tended-to. Let the man do what he wants. As much as I think dogs are special, they are animals and they are property. His animals, his animal husbandry.
Any other approach to this is a slippery, ugly slope, no matter how strongly you might feel some other way is better than his way.
I’m with you– I’ve never been a sight hound person.
Can you imagine trying to even use a sight hound in West Virginia? There’s not enough open land to course anything, and the hills are really steep.
But that said, I’m open to a possibility that raising sight hounds, which are nothing like retrievers, might be a very different canine endeavor (gasp).
Raising sighthound pups is not, IMO, any different than raising any pup to be intelligent and well-rounded. They need mental stimulation and exercise. Where sighthounds may differ is that they don’t look to you provide entertainment. They will happily go out and find it themselves. That’s one of the things I like so much about my dogs. They have lives of their own that have nothing to do with me.
On a related topic, don’t know if you saw this or not:
“[B]reeds with short noses and centrally placed eyes were better at interpreting the gesture than those with long noses and widely spaced eyes, which can probably be connected to a more optimal retinal location of greatest visual acuity, that might help focus their attention.”
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090723194319.htm
That may be why sight hounds get such an undeserved reputation.
Another good post on husbandry from a breeder with livestock guardians:
http://stephenbodio.blogspot.com/2009/08/naturally.html
Note the comments about socializing.
What’s interesting is his (Bodio’s) canine expertise is in dogs that are the exact opposite of what I own. His dogs are from landrace forms, which have relatively healthy gene pools. His breeds work independently of man.
Mine are the exact opposite. Mine all come from “improved” and homogeneous strains. They work with man almost entirely, and to do their work, they have to have literally years of training.
His dogs were owned by common people and pastoralists. Mine were owned by popinjay gentlemen with Colonel Blimp mustaches.
Very good stuff, though.
Excellent point brought up in this reference. My friend raises Fila Brasilero on his farm in Brazil. They are very much the protectors of his property and his livestock in much the same way these anatolians are to their herd. Some die from wolves or Puma, While on occasion his pack may kill a wolf or Puma. In the end they have a job they are raised for and they do it well, living like a sort of wild animal yet still very much dependent upon their humans. However, in the end try as he might, the dogs decide where to bed down for the evening or where to whelp their litters, even when there are beautiful stables built just for the dogs they still ultimately choose for themselves.
In General you’ve hit the nail on the head. Dog fanatics tend to have a need to control others and seem to think that once they sell one of their pups that the pup is still theirs for the rest of its life. Sad really, its like they live only for their dogs and have no idea about the real world. Or that there isn’t anything acceptable outside of their own small circle of acquaintances with the same warped mentality.
I want to make sure I’m not misunderstood–While I think if it’s your dog and breeding program, do what you want to do–BUT–If a breeder wants to keep a tight rein on their breeding program and the pups and how they are raised, I personally think that’s their prerogative as well.
This fellow clearly has his own vision, and his own breeding program, and his own ways of doing things, and bully for him. His dogs are healthy and he’s breeding them because people want them–fine. But there are other breeders with very different ideas about dogs and breeding who ALSO have healthy dogs that people want, and bully for them, too.
I think anyone involved in “the dog world”–and if you buy a registered dog and/or you intend to breed, congratulations, you’re involved to some degree–needs to make a calculated decision about how much and in what ways they want to be legally, socially, and emotionally entangled with people who have VERY strong ideas about what they think should be done with animals.
Some years ago, I had to do A LOT of shopping around to find the kind of dog I wanted without a limited registration attached, because I didn’t want those kinds of limitations on what I considered mine. I keep in touch with the breeder, and he’s glad to hear from me, and we’ve exchanged health information, but what I do with my dog is totally my business (neuter, don’t neuter, breed, don’t breed, whatever). Later, I had a chance to co-own a very exciting dog with someone–I passed, because I didn’t want to be that controlled. And then later, I had a chance to co-own a very exciting dog with someone else–I took the opportunity, because there were other considerations at work. I gave up some rights, and what I do with the dog is NOT only my business–it is, literally, someone else’s business (as in, part of their livelihood), and it’s what I agreed to.
Loose reins on one dog–tight reins on the other. I’m sure there are folks who disagree with me on both counts–they’re entitled to their opinions, too.
People have a right to extremes of control and lack of control of their breeding program if that’s what is made clear to buyers when they breed and sell their puppies.
In some ways, shopping for a flat-coat is easier than shopping for a decent golden. It’s not so much that the breeders are tightly controlling everything (some are). It’s just that there are some many crap dogs that are being cranked out in the pet-lines. And I don’t knock pet lines, you can find a good dog in those lines, if you’re careful. It’s just that the pet lines are full of crap dogs.
Well, it isn’t cut and dry. You just can’t sell a dog and the magic word is “sell” a dog without expecting it to no longer be yours. If you enter into some kind of co-ownership it brings with it, its own headaches. And if the breeder has any issues with letting go once the sale is done then that is a breeder worth avoiding in the future IMHO. Control should be directed towards the health and well being of the pups after they are sold and the prosperity of that animal later in its years, but to think they have a say as to what you can and can’t do with your animal each and every moment of its life is absurd and borderline lunacy. As far as law is concerned …. its pretty much to the point. If you pay for a registered dog, then you should receive all the qualifying papers. If that is not furnished upon sale of the dog or some paperwork offered explaining that the papers are to be received shortly thereafter then the sale is not complete and no contract is binding. Thats how it is with ownership. At least in the eyes of the law. Its not like you can buy a car without having the title and registration. The same applies to purebred dogs. Unless you knowingly enter into a sale where the papers are not to be produced and the animal is sold at a significant discount then as the saying goes you get what you pay for. However if you are buying a dog with registrations then that must be furnished upon sale otherwise the seller has misrepresented the animal being sold whether as a pet or show dog or livestock.
If you agree to it then that is the drum you march to. If however, that was never a part of the equation then the sale is final and what happens from that point on is well…. not really the business of the breeder anymore. The knowledge of the welfare of that animal may be of concern, but thats about it. Unless the animal is being treated cruelly or neglected then there really is no problem, even if the dogs are not whelping in the Taj Mahal.
The idiocy is in the way dog fancier people humanize their animals to the point where that animal completely takes over every aspect of the rest of their lives. I’ve witnessed this to different levels from mild to the extreme. But in every case the owners would put the dog before their own children, family and blood relatives. And that is just stupid. Sure some animals are exceptional, they are still not human. They share our lives and we honor their seemingly undying devotion to us with our affection for them. Just seems that drawing the line between dog and human seems blurred for some people. And its those people who try and control what happens to their “SOLD” pups after they’ve gone to new homes. Well, if they were that concerned about that animal…. they had the choice to keep it. In choosing to sell it…. they also choose to give ownership of that animal to the buyers. If they can’t deal with it they very well should never have sold it.
Yes, but I can see why flat-coats are so hard to get.
Again paraphrasing terrierman…. The people seeking pets have all the more reason to be concerned about the health of their dogs before cosmetics….
In general. Responsible people who breed for a good healthy dog will buck the control freaks. And who’s opinion are we going on about what is a crap dog? As you elude to, yourself, one man’s cup of tea may not suit everyone is this world. Oh well.
It just may be that in the opinion of one person claiming there is a crap FCR here and there…. we might actually see a dog that lives a healthier longer life free of genetic defects and cancer than what the purists call the perfect FCR. That perfect FCR bred to fill the conformation description to the letter could die before the age of seven, but if if provides you a title and some winnings here and there then in the mind of the purist fanatic…they got their money’s worth. Well, in the reality the rest of the world lives in. When you show us a loyal dog that respects his master and family and can provide the companion we seek everyday of its life until it dies naturally of old age beyond 13 years. Then you’ve found the perfect FCR or any dog for that matter. There are many crap ones winning trophies because the purist fanatic owners happen to know the judges by name or had brunch with them the weekend before. There are many sound and truly exceptional specimens that lose only because their owners don’t know the judges or the ins and outs of the religious inner workings of the dog show. Again I say oh well. Apparently there are still people who can see through all the BS and know a real sound animal when they actually meet one. Others seem to think they know when all they are really doing is making themselves believe what the purists are telling them. Again Oh well.
There are many winners circle rejects who only got there because of the owner’s personal relationships with that inner circle of judges. This is not fabrication…. its just the way it is. Perhaps if it were not a single person’s opinion then in the future we really would see real dogs winning in the conformation ring. lately the winners have been real losers. Perhaps if it were a panel of judges from different areas and regions of the country who very seldom if ever get to talk to each other we would see some very different results. And perhaps our RetrieverMan would type praises for the dog shows instead of the ridicule of them that most of us agree with.
All I hear from people who are looking for FlatCoats is how difficult they are to find. And when you find one how difficult the breeders are. If you don’t fit their mold of character, you don’t have the honor of having one of their pups.
………..And that is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to their elitist mentality.
Flattie’s not that bad.
But I really don’t want to rehash this one again.
Ditto
Retrieverman said, “In some ways, shopping for a flat-coat is easier than shopping for a decent golden. It’s not so much that the breeders are tightly controlling everything (some are). It’s just that there are some many crap dogs that are being cranked out in the pet-lines. And I don’t knock pet lines, you can find a good dog in those lines, if you’re careful. It’s just that the pet lines are full of crap dogs”
I think it’s probably equally difficult, but maybe not for exactly the same reasons.
But once you find a flat-coat, the chances of it being crap are dramatically lower than with a golden.
“In choosing to sell it…. they also choose to give ownership of that animal to the buyers. If they can’t deal with it they very well should never have sold it.” Well, I’m not sure whether we agree or not, but that’s okay, we don’t have to. I just want to make my own point as clearly as possible.
There are certain agreements people enter into when they buy (and sell) a dog.
Some agreements are simple: “Here’s the full registration and here’s your dog.” Other agreements are far more complicated: “Here’s the limited registration and a copy of my health guarantee; let’s read the terms together, I’m pretty strict about when and why I will replace a dog and refund any money; I will not send the paperwork until I have proof of spay/neuter; note in the contract that I reserve the right of first refusal to buy should you decide at any time not to keep the dog,” and so on.
Same with co-owning: “Here’s my standard 12-page co-ownership contract; let’s make any modifications to it clear now in writing, and then let’s sign the AKC paperwork once we’re in agreement.” Or: “Let’s sign that co-ownership paperwork! We agree orally on the big stuff and let’s keep the details fluid. I’m glad we trust each other because it will be great to work together with this dog.”
And a million variations.
It behooves a person to know what kind of a relationship–legally, of course, but also ethically and personally–they are getting into whenever they exchange money for paperwork and a dog. Not understanding the relationship, and not abiding by it, is a recipe for hard feelings, no matter what the law says.
Different relationships suit different people, dogs, lifestyles, times in a person’s life, times in a breeder’s program (starting out? well-established?), etc. Know the relationship you (not you personally, you in general) are getting involved in. Then if someone criticizes you or tries to control you beyond what your agreement was, you can say “yeah, whatever,” with some integrity.
Seems like the breeder with the little Saluki is in a position to say, “Yeah, whatever,” so I say, “Not my cup of tea in a breeding program, but good luck to you.”
Other situations are more controlled, and people have a right to that, too. That’s all I’m saying.
According to the same Kennel club that breeders covet for registration the sale of a dog should not be accepted without full or limited papers upon sale. END OF STORY. You wish to walk the walk then you should also abide by the same bylaws, recommendations and rules put in play by the same registry that everyone want to compete for a title under. According to them, the breeders who sell their dogs without papers or withhold papers until you spay or neuter are wrong in doing so. Again coming from the source of the dog fancy and all their lunacy it pretty much makes most breeders felons.
If it came to a test of wills between a stubborn breeder with their nose in your business after selling a pup to you or you wanting the right to raise and honor your pet the way you feel is right …. believe me…. the laws favor what I’ve already pointed out. The term “what happens behind my closed doors is my business” can be extended to “what I do with my property on my property is my decision”
You know our ancestors would have had a hell of a time creating any of the breeds we know today with all the anal retentive breeders in the world we live in were around in the time they lived. I prefer the open minded ones. In fact if it weren’t for the open minded free thinking people of the world we would never have progressed beyond the wolf as a pet.
I don’t know what the big deal is here. I don’t know what kind of breeders you’ve had experiences with, but the ones I know are certainly not felons by any stretch of definition or delusion. If they were, I’d be looking to change my experiences.
My ONE point, ancillary to the thread and just for clarification and however-related to whatever point you’re trying to make, is as follows: People who pay money for dogs and people who accept money for dogs should enter into agreements that they mutually and freely accept and then abide by them. Limited registration, spay-neuter, co-own, guarantees, buy-backs, whatever–there’s a place for these more tightly-controlled agreements. But if everyone abides by the agreement, then the “too controlling” blah blah blah arguments can be crammed up a chimney and released as a whole lot of hot air, which is what all the prattle about other peoples’ business usually is.
My OTHER, MAIN point more pertinent to the thread, one more time for good luck, is that the fellow with the lovely little Saluki is apparently free to breed and raise his dogs as he pleases. He might be off the beaten path for some people, but whatever–his dogs.
I don’t know anyone personally, breeder or buyer, who has chosen to operate outside the bounds of the agreements they freely entered into with their dogs, whether those agreements were liberal, or strict.
Where all these breeder-felons are would be a mystery to me. I’m sorry you believe there are so many out there. Clearly our experiences are very different.
I can’t say anymore on the subject, thank heaven–I’m exhausted.
We’re completely opposite when it comes to anything outside of what we find okay with this post. Again, no harm no foul. If its not your cup of tea for a working type of breeder then you move on to the socializing type. Either way we all have a choice.
As far as control issues and the Dog fancy mentality. We are always going to be miles apart. And for that …. we both have much to feel fortunate about. I along with the majority will never aspire to be like the owners of the macabre freakshow winner and those owners will never come off that elitist mentality and acknowledge their system is broken.
I happen to sit on the same side of the fence and think that if there is no harm no foul and the animals are thriving then That owner can do whatever they want.
Fortunately in this world we have the ability to choose how we make our final decisions. And if you want something bad enough to throw caution to the wind and dive into a contract where you don’t have all the control, then so be it. However, if you decide that well, maybe I do want more control. You will also find most of the contracts not worth the paper they’re written on and control is very attainable with the laws on your side.
I’m not saying they’re felons. I’m pointing out that according to what their coveted registry says. What they are doing, they might as well be felons. For the Registry it is Cut and Dry. The sale of a registered dog without the corresponding papers is unethical and not condoned. Yet it happens everyday. If the buyers knew more about their rights then there would possibly be more breeders out of business. Or at least forced to sell correctly if the public was more aware of their rights. Spay Neuter is optional regardless of the contract. The only way to insure a spay neuter is for the seller to do so prior to the sale of the animal. They should still provide all corresponding paperwork or accept a reduced price for the animal for not providing that paperwork. That said….. at this point in time there is possibly millions of dog owners who are owed a refund. That, too, could put many breeders out of business.
Wow.
Gotta say, I don’t think we’re sitting on the same side of the fence. I think we’re in different yards, in far-away suburbs. With different zoning laws and homeowners agreements.
Well, thank goodness you’re there to fill the void for those clamoring hordes of people looking for untitled flat-coats and flat-coat mixes in a multitude of colors, shapes, and sizes.
I’ll keep hanging out with the title-whores and their macabre freak-show specimens with letters on both ends of their hoyty-toyty AKC-registered names.
It’s a big world, and we’re unlikely to bump into each other. If we do, I’ll buy a couple of sandwiches if you’ll buy cokes and chips, and we’ll try to have a real conversation.
I’ve been in the field all day–I’m going to go nurse my sunburn and hit the hay.
Somehow, I knew that conversation was going there.
I do a damn good job of it too with full papers from both ends of the mixes and parent dogs that still kick an ass or two in conformation events. And would you believe…..90% of the people who are looking, really don’t give a rats ass about a title, and I’d have to say that 100% of the dogs don’t either.
. But if you choose to believe what has been painted for you by the title whores and their macabre freak show elitist mentality. To each their own.
I have 5 kids and a pack of a dozen dogs that are going down for the night after a long day of hiking, playing and overall enjoying our lives. Time to slip into the pajamas and sleep on the tempur-pedic.
Follow up on the pups in the picture:
http://demonpuppy.blogspot.com/2009/08/random-doggage-tazi-pups.html