If you want see something absolutely amazing, read this post and then read the comments.
Full disclosure: I don’t sing from Mr. Millan’s song book.
However, I know people who read this blog think he’s wonderful. I understand your points.
I can’t train a dog the way he does. I just can’t. They can always tell I’m acting. I also think this “energy” thing he talks about is metaphysics, and as someone who thinks most metaphysics is crapola, my eyes just glaze over when I hear him talk about energy.
I can get results with food and my voice.
Granted, you know what kind of dogs I have had.
But I simply cannot train a dog using a slip-chain collar. It’s much easier for me to use lure and treat. I simply lack the acting skills to be an asshole to a dog.
But what’s interesting is that much of this discussion is really a culture war. Now, it parallels but is not directly equal to our discussion of social issues. There are plenty of liberal people who train dogs using the traditional methods, and I’m sure there are conservatives who click and treat.
However, it is so amazing how similar the debates are to culture wars. And, just like those debates it’s usually not a case of everyone being right or wrong. Some people are able to use these methods well.
But usually what you get in these debates are something like: “You don’t know how to train a dog. I do.” The reality is that some people can train certain dogs a certain way, and others simply cannot. This is a gray area. For anyone to claim that they have all the answers is a bit foolish.
That said:
Cesar Millan reminds me of Pat Robertson, which, for me, isn’t a good thing. (I once saw Cesar on TBN, which I thought was excellent place for him.)
Our first family dog was a Rottweiler, and we were total dog newbies. Recipe for disaster, right there! She was on her way to becoming a basketcase at a year old (aggression issues towards other people/dogs). We took her to a ‘balanced’ trainer, and corrected her problems with voice and food, just like you describe. We never had to choke, shove, poke, or bully her, even with her barking and lunging and being around 100 lb. Never. She became a wonderful dog; confident and reserved and very intelligent. She was a beautiful example of her breed.
That experience has forever made me a staunch believer in balanced positive training — with minimal leash corrections and lots of positive associations and rewards. I just can’t see how any sane dog would be so ‘extremely uncontrollable’ that they wouldn’t be able to be trained like that.
Like most religious discussions in the dog world (food, training, health care, etc.), the real point is lost: what works best for the individual dog. If it was really all about the dogs, people would talk about the dogs, not about ideologies.
If I tried the Cesar stuff on my dog, this is what would happen:
She would be so cowed that she would roll over and piss every time I would come near her.
And that’s what happens if you try this shit on really soft dogs that belong to breeds that are generally very easy to train.
If you can’t train a golden retriever with the typical temperament for that breed, you probably can’t train any dog.
Like your Goldens, I have found collies to be soft & sensitive but in addition they get, well, insulted by cohersive methods. A collie trained with leash pops & man handling can learn and will perform but the performance with be with ears back, at glacial speed, with all the enthusiasm of an bored bookkeeper filling out forms. I’ve found that collies really want to please and they delight in being “right.” Harness that and you’ll get a collie that loves to work.
I’ve had two very easily trained goldens that were very soft in temperament. I know many people are not accustomed to that sort of temperament in a dog.
I think sighthounds have a variant on that temperament, but they also have another characteristic goldens don’t have– they really prefer to think for themselves. Goldens want your approval all the time.
Sighthounds are not bred to work with people. In general, they don’t care about pleasing you at all. You have to find some other motivation for them. It varies according to the dog.
Except Greyhounds, the Greys I have owned did not have a very sighthoundy temperament at all.
That’s because greyhounds have a lot of herding dog in them. They have been found to have common ancestry with herders, which to me makes sense. The lurchers often are collie-greyhound crosses, and most likely were used as outcrosses in greyhound lines.
“More surprising to dog lovers might be some of the relationships among breeds that the research revealed. The German shepherd, for example, is closer genetically to mastiffs, boxers and other “guarding” dogs than to herding dogs. The fleet greyhound, Irish wolfhound, borzoi, or Russian wolfhound, and lumbering Saint Bernard count herding dogs among their closest kin. And the pharaoh hound and Ibizan hound, often called the oldest of breeds, are really recent constructions, as is the Norwegian elkhound.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/21/science/21dog.html
Of course, we already knew that about the so-called Pharaoh hound and the Norwegian elkhounds.
It’s also possible that greyhounds aren’t related to the other sight hounds at all. Maybe they evolved from herding type dogs that evolved the sight-hound conformation and behavior separately from the others.
“Like most religious discussions in the dog world (food, training, health care, etc.), the real point is lost: what works best for the individual dog. If it was really all about the dogs, people would talk about the dogs, not about ideologies.”
Here, here!
I think it’s mostly what Cesar does right and what everyone else strives to emulate and, ultimately, messes up in some say, shape or form that raises everyone’s hackles. Do I agree with him 110%? Of course not. But I think he’s got the right IDEA, and how he executes it is what is necessary to solve certain problems.
Look at the dogs in his pack, how he interacts with them and how they interact with each other. They may not know “sit” and “down” but they are definitely secure, confident, happy dogs. I do not call that the result of such methods in that list of confrontations that even most true ‘balanced’ trainers (who choose to use training collars) don’t do.
I wish training for ALL dogs was as easy as treats and a voice, but until that day comes, those lucky enough to need only those are laughing at the rest of us.
(That’s your cue, Retreiverman… :D )
Cesar’s methods work for Cesar and rarely for anyone else. It’s a joy to watch him with his own dogs, but makes me cringe to see him try to teach it to someone else.
On the flip side, it is nice to see someone really apply themselves to it (actually trying, asking questions, looking for more and learning about themselves in the process) and not just take home the “Do this, this and this and you will have a good dog” lesson. The panic attack lady in the “Power of the Pack” episode really seemed to ‘get it’ and was eager to learn more, for example.
I think it’s that what gets people into trouble. It’s not a fricken grocery checklist, it’s learning how to deal with a living predator animal (every specimen examined being the same species, using the same type of communication, and each one containing a different blend of personalities) with a BRAIN.
That’s been my experience with methods.
I like watching him; he reads dogs well. And I like to slow-mo the scenes where dogs react quickly, to see the earliest moment at which a behavior can be read.
I’ve tried some things that have worked–the energy (or body language, practically speaking) of “owning the door” is something I’ve been fairly successful with, though I’m not really a natural. I’ve tried some things that haven’t worked–I’ll never try to lay a dog down again, now way no how, as it’s just something that doesn’t work for me and I think for someone that it doesn’t come naturally to, it’s far too complex a decision to make and maneuver to execute.
What I think people miss with him is that the best tv almost always is the most physically dramatic tv–but when he has a dog that responds to treats and praise and energy, he uses it… people just don’t watch as intently.
What I really dislike about him is that he’s introduced a highly-charged jargon into the language of people (most) who don’t really understand dogs–“red zone,” “alpha,” etc. Then, I hear people applying these terms in absolutely nonsensical situations–someone with a playful, bored, nippy puppy will “alpha roll” the puppy to show “dominance” and the dog will be in the “red zone.” For crying out loud, people, if you’re going to have a puppy, read a little bit about dog development and use some common sense. I dearly wish Cesar would do some puppy shows (7 weeks through maybe a year or even 18 months with a large breed) to show what normal behavior is and how to respond to it.
But that’s not his shtick–he does abnormal/problem behavior, so that may be asking too much. He is what he is–a little good, a little bad, but mostly it’s what you do with it.
I hate that term red zone.
I hate it.
He never does puppy shows. Never.
“He never does puppy shows. Never.”
I think I’ve seen a puppy or two, but not as the focus. I am a broadcast-tv home and only indulge in Dog Whisperer when I’m traveling or visiting, but wasn’t there a “successor to Daddy” puppy we’ve seen?
Most of the problems he deals with seem to me to be socialization and other puppy issues. I wish he’d address that–but again, it’s not his thing.
I hate “red zone” also.
I’ve seen an episode about a blue pit bull named Junior, which I thought was Daddy’s successor.
If he reads dogs well, then why does he call clearly fearful dogs “dominant”? Why does he say dogs are being “calm submissive” when they’re still clearly stressed but have simply stopped fighting? (By way of full disclosure, I haven’t watched his show since season two when I decided I couldn’t stomach it anymore and I’ve only read his first book.)
I don’t get much TV (only 2 broadcast stations nowadays) so I’ve only seen a few snippets of Cesar’s dog training show. What I’ve heard on the street, at dog parks, on trails & etc. has often been nonsensical. It could be like a game of telephone and I’m just getting the garbled rendition. I have heard a lot of a talk about dominance, red zone, dominance, a shh-ing sound, more dominance, and seen some weird finger thing done at dogs.
I hate it when people describe every dog/dog or dog/human interaction in terms of dominance/alpha. I do think dominance matters for some aggressive behavior but not for majority of day to day stuff. Looking at everything in terms of dominance/submission, IMHO, creates an adversarial relationship between owner and dog. When people get the idea their dog is being dominant over them, their first reaction is indignation (“how dare he!”). IMHO, the vast majority of the time when dogs don’t obey or behave poorly it’s either because they don’t know any better and/or they are getting a big reward for doing the poor behavior.
For example when I first got F (at the time a 10 month old collie), he would try to leap out the van/crate as soon as I opened the door. A day after I got him, a guy watching me unload him at a local trail head said F was being dominant over me and started shh-ing at him.* No he wasn’t (by nature F is very respectful of people), he just didn’t know any better and he was excited to get out. It didn’t help that F was still not that thrilled with car rides (no vomiting but he occasionally looked a little green around the gills).
If I looked at his door charging behavior as F being a dominant snot, I would have naturally approached it with a not-very-nice attitude (“I’ll teach you!”) but instead I knew he was just being a silly goof and taught him polite van/crate door behavior. It involved forethought and was done in lots of little steps which meant it would have made for boring TV. F is now 2 and stands like a rock at the van/crate door until I give him the release.
* That shh-ing noise freaked out F; he skittered to the end of his leash and alarm barked. L, my older collie bitch, was concerned about this strange guy walking & shh-ing towards F; started barking and inserted herself between the two. The guy than said that both my dogs were dominant; I needed to watch Cesar; and then hopped into his car and left. Good thing he left so quickly because he was just about to meet the real alpha bitch and it wasn’t L.
So I don’t know enough about Cesar to comment on his show but I can say some of his followers are complete asses.
http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com
Most “pit bull” people really hate him, despite CM’s love for the breed. In his “dueling pit bull” episode, which you can see on the NatGeo site, he sets up 2 dog-aggressive pit bulls and allows them to get into a fight through sheer arrogance, negligence, inattention and stupidity (most savvy dog people can see that fight coming a mile away). Later, he allows one of them to attack his sweet old boy Daddy (yes, retrieverman, Jr. is Daddy’s successor, but there’s plenty of evidence that he does NOT have the placid mild manner of the older dog, which is likely to lead to trouble).
“Exercise, discipline and affection” are essentials, I’m sure we all agree. And CM is a charismatic person who has a lot of natural affinity and understanding of dogs. He also seems to be a very caring and generous person.
But his training methods are archaic, sometimes bizarre and ineffective
He reminds me of a cult leader.
I don’t know where he got the training methods to be honest with you.
I mean the old Koehler method doesn’t resemble any of his stuff.
From the looks of Daddy, he reminds me of the hog dog (pack-hunting) strains of pit bull, which really are quite docile (until they see a pig, of course).
I started with a choke collar and corrections when I adopted my itchy bitchy pit bull but pretty quickly learned there was no way I was going to punish her into behaving. I simply will never be able to, well, out-asshole her. She’s bold and confident and all kinds of terrier through and through.
Fortunately I had a trainer fairly early on who introduced me to clicker training (though it took me a long time before I’d condescend to use an actual clicker) but oh what a world of difference it made. Learning to work with my dog instead of against her made life so much easier. Her dog aggression will never be “cured” in that she can have free run with other dogs, but she went from getting so worked up that she’d vomit at the sight of another dog dozens of feet away to a dog who can easily go to dog festivals on leash and be sane and reasonable. She can work offleash at the training club despite other dogs around her. She has come so far it’s unbelievable.
oh and speaking of Daddy, if CM is so d”ed smart and observant about dogs, how come he can’t see that this old boy is struggling with arthritis or dysplasia and his life would be MUCH easier if he lost 5-10 pounds? It hurts me to see that sweet old dog obviously hurting.
“I simply lack the acting skills to be an asshole to a dog.”
Awesome, seriously.
There is a NY based trainer who calls what CM does being the “predator” and that gets the attention and response from the dogs he’s “rehabilitating” or whatever. It’s accurate.
I know I’m going to get pilloried for this, but check this out:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/31/opinion/31derr.html
In response to that: http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2006/08/balanced-trainer-for-unbalanced-dogs.html
I’ve grown to see that not everything, though, is “dominance”…but that still doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be fixed. Any trainer that, in the end, leaves an owner with a dog that either a) still performs the problem behavior, or b) can’t even get the dog to perform the most basic of obedience commands is no trainer. He’s either trying too hard/little and ultimately doing something wrong, or doesn’t know enough to deserve to be taking anyone’s money. I think Heather (“H. Houlihan” in the comments) in the original link hit a pretty good nail on the head. How many people, even those NOT on Dog Whisperer, do we hear checking off a list of the number of experts (behavioral, medical or otherwise) they have seen regarding their dog and NOTHING made a difference, even with their participation and effort to fix the problem?
Despite this, I still think that most dog problems come from a lack of understanding of what a dog ISN’T. My dog is not a chicken or a dolphin, and to say that methods used for those species are THE ONLY WAY to go are just ghastly. My dog is also not a child and doesn’t need sheltered and coddled. And lastly, my dog is not a “stimulus-response” robot who responds without thinking because she’s scared of “punishment” or simply because I dole out a reward for her action. There’s a healthy balance in there and I hope it’s evident.
I disagree with him on that one.
I won’t disagree that behaviorism has its limitations.
There are risks in doing things the Cesar Millan way, and some of them are very risky for the average person to try.
Am I opposed to e-collars? No. But you better know how to use one.
I just don’t think the average person can act like a wolf convincingly enough to actually have an effect on a dog.
Maybe Cesar does.
Yeah, I basically learned to train dogs a very different way, and it’s because of this, I just don’t get Cesar.
I think it might work in some cases.
But there are other ways.
When I started school just a week ago for vet tech, the school I go to uses Gentle Leaders exclusively on the dogs, no exception (well, maybe for the EasyWalk harness…kickbacks and equipment donation, anyone?). I went ot my advisor, one of the attending DVMs, and respectfully explained my background and experience with training collars and she replied that she understands how they work and appreciates that they do wonders in a lot of cases. BUT…with 150 people in the program and correction timing and execution having to be pretty spot on, it’s really unfair to have all those people jerking around dogs different ways for different things. So they have to be consistent, and even though I disagree with the EXCLUSIVE use of any tool without even discussing how others WORK (and I pretty much disagree with the concept of the halter in terms of the dog’s psychology and physiology), I see her point and plan to let the matter rest.
However, in the real world and in any training regimen, flexibility–not the tool–is what builds the training technique and relationship. If someone gives me a tire iron, I can use it to help me change a tire, use it as a paperweight, or whack someone over the head with it…and if I didn’t know what the heck the thing is for, I’ll ask someone or give it to a mechanic to use. Just because someone doesn’t touch one the whole time they own a car doesn’t mean that it won’t come in handy sometime. I’d rather go to a trainer who is open to the OPTION (as well as knowledgable in the use and application) of many different tools so that, in case one fails, we can use another.
The headcollar is not for every dog. The pinch collar is not for every dog. I pretty much think the harness should be used only for medical or restraint reasons or genuine draft/guide dog purposes. Dominance techniques such as those under discussion might be overkill for individual dogs or even softer breeds. Which is FINE. Koehler, in the ’60s, had the right ideas about training. Pat Miller, Karen Pryor, Ian Dunbar (who actually praises the benefits of aversives or corrections to the surprise of some) and other pure-positive trainers have some good ideas about training, and so do other trainers I can’t even think of. But are they all 100% right with their philosophies and applications? NO. Then are they all 100% wrong? Of course not!
It is not an I’m-right-you’re-wrong “heaven-or-hell” argument that some make it into. This is not a moral issue. It is a matter of personal preference and what works, and people who insist that there is only ONE WAY are only wearing blinders to everything around them.
Which is why, even though I do appreciate, respect and even agree with Cesar’s actions on the occasion, I cannot agree fully 100% with him in some ways.
In fact, take a look at everything in which you believe…is there anyone with whose opinion or technique you can ever agree 100%? Or do you agree just enough to support them or not?
I see what you’re saying, and I don’t disagree.
How do you put a gentle leader or head collar on a pug?
I don’t want a halti/gentle leader on either of my dogs, especially when they are under stress. Period. I think they can be dangerous on a strong dog.
If a vet tech tried to put a gentle leader on either of my dogs, I would leave and find another vet.
I also wouldn’t want a vet tech using a choke chain as a training tool on my dog.
A vet tech that can’t effectively use a simple nylon slip lead in a normal office setting wouldn’t get my respect–If there’s a risk of a bite, use a muzzle.
No offense, Viatecio, I know you’re stating you are capable and I certainly believe you.
Appreciate the sentiment, F-n-L, and no offense taken…but I am simply following the rules of the school, which are rather extreme in some ways. I will not put any tool on your dog unless you come to me for advice about behavioral rehab, in which case I might choose one that a) I feel comfortable using, and b) is necessary for the problem about which you came to me. Never will I just grab your dog and place something on it unless necessary, and I encourage anyone who is otherwise insulted/belittled/unhappy with their vet staff to speak up and leave if needed. Just like a doctor is a partner–neither dictator nor slave–to your health, the vet must be your partner in your pet’s health.
Slip leads are allowed at school, but only for temporary restraint until the Leader can be put on. The way I saw the halters being used (esp. by the DVM) during the how-to session (yes, we scheduled 50 minutes out of a 2 hour class to learn how to fit and use a GL) appalled me as well…I do not advocate yanking like that especially when the majority of the pressure goes to the rather fragile occiptal-cervical joint instead of around the entire neck!! Nor do the dogs themselves apply the learning theory correctly when some of them still pull like a train on their GLs, paw at their faces (after a YEAR of wearing them too!), and act out at will. The phrase I read on many note cards about the dogs is “Do not allow” and most dogs still do, even when “not allowed.” There is no yang to this place’s yin in areas where it might help, but since I am bound by rules (and who knows what IACUC would say about certain training tools anyway) as well as my being a student who is there to learn how to be a vet tech and not a know-it-all trainer to boss around the higher-ups on how to hold a leash properly (like NOT putting your whole wrist through the loop–how unnatural it is to me!) and which tools might benefit a dog better than the one it currently wears (some dogs are fine in the headcollar, but the resident who is dog-aggressive is a perfect candidate for a training collar), my hands are voluntarily tied.
I appreciate you may have had to choose this school for other good reasons. But an actual vet’s office that insisted on this practice would not see my dogs or my money.
I think for some dogs and some owners, a gentle leader/halti-type tool is one option for controlling/walking a dog when actual training is impossible for some reason.
In general, I think it’s not a very useful training tool, and for a strong dog that resists it’s dangerous.
But some people think they’re fantastic. Eh.
Though I may be a part of “the only species that is wired different from the rest.” – I thoroughly enjoyed that article. And having been written over 3 years ago, it’s amazing that Cesar is even still on television. Thanks for posting.
Have you brought anything new or insightful to Cesar’s criticism Retrieverman? If so, please, enlighten me.
http://vetmedicine.about.com/b/2009/07/07/veterinary-behaviorists-take-a-stand-against-cesar-millan.htm
and this book: http://reviews.armchairinterviews.com/reviews/merles-door-lessons-from-a-freethinking-dog
This book includes a study of wolf packs. Leaders that lead wolf packs with an iron fist get overthrown within a year or two, while those that are more benevolent remain in power for life.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Uwj-BBsM3SYC&pg=PA254&dq=merle%27s+door+wolf&client=firefox-a#v=onepage&q=merle%27s%20door%20wolf&f=false
He may be able to get it to work for some dogs.
However, if the general public tries these methods, it is very risky and not based upon any real ethology.
It’s just projecting human views about power onto dogs. Ironically, that’s what he says he doesn’t do, but that’s what he’s doing.
Wou. This is one of the most commented writing of our Retrieverman.
It also indicates there are wars going on in the dog-education fields. We have different dog cultures, and sub-cultures, which based on very different educational / psychological / philosophical schools.
I’m not a fan of Milan, but I too see his talent. I also see his limitations.
Cesar Milan has mexican, very macho cultured roots himself. I also suppose he’s grown up with typical mexican promblem / stray dogs like pitbulls etc. That’s where he learned his basic skills.
I see Milan as a special educator teacher who operates with dogs with really bad problems – or with hesitating, bad owners, who don’t have the time for their pet and so demand more instant solutions.
If you have a normal dog, as most of us have, I think you don’t have to spend your time on studying Milan’s methods – anything more than this.