By 1868, Nous had been an established working retriever at Guisachan for three years, and his owner, the 1st Baron Tweedmouth (Dudley Marjoribanks), decided that he wanted to use Nous to found his own breed.
Dudley Marjoribanks had grown up in Berwickshire, the former county in which Berwick-upon-Tweed had been its shire town. He also represented Berwick-upon-Tweed as an MP, and thus, he was familiar with that region’s peculiarities.
He knew of the local water dog, which was a cross between the indigenous water spaniel of the region and “the Newfoundland.”
Richard Lawrence wrote about them in The Complete Farrier and British Sportsman in 1816:
Along rocky shores and dreadful declivities beyond the junction of the Tweed with the sea of Berwick, water dogs have derived an addition of strength, from the introduction of a cross with the Newfoundland dog, which has rendered them completely adequate to the arduous difficulties and diurnal perils in which they are systematically engaged (405).
These dogs were a landrace type, which means they varied greatly in appearance. In Hugh Dalziel’s British Dogs, J.S. Skidmore’s description of the Tweed water spaniel goes as follows:
They were very light liver colour, so close in curl as to give me the idea that they had originally been a cross from a smooth-haired dog; they were long in tail, ears heavy in flesh and hard like a hound’s, but only slightly feathered – fore legs feathered behind, hind legs smooth, head conical, lips more pendulous than M’Carthy’s strain. The one I owned, which was considered to be one of the best of them, I bred from twice, and in each litter several of the puppies were liver and tan, being tanned from the knees downward and under the tail. I came to the conclusion that she, at any rate, had been crossed with the bloodhound.
It is possible that his dog had been crossed with bloodhound or maybe Gordon setter, but at least one account of the dogs suggests that at least some of these dogs were more of the retriever-type Stanley O’Neill was a well-known flat-coat expert who he had encountered Tweed water dogs as a boy in the 1890’s. His description is of a more retriever like than that of J.S. Skidmore:
Further up the coast, probably Alnmouth [in Northumberland, south of Berwick-upon-Tweed], I saw men netting for salmon. With them was a dog with a wavy or curly coat. It was a tawny colour but, wet and spumy, it was difficult to see the exact colour, or how much was due to bleach and salt. Whilst my elders discussed the fishing I asked these Northumberland salmon net men whether their dog was a [St. John’s?] Water-Dog or a Curly, airing my knowledge. They told me he was a Tweed Water Spaniel. This was a new one on me. I had a nasty suspicion my leg was being pulled. This dog looked like a brown Water Dog to me, certainly retrieverish, and not at all spanielly. I asked if he came from a trawler, and was told it came from Berwick.
From that description, the dogs looked like a tawny curly-coated retriever. This suggests that at least some of the dogs were not true livers but were brown-skinned yellow to reds. The “light-liver” color in the Skidmore description sounds more like a deadgrass Chessie than a true liver-colored dog. (Deadgrass Chessies are light yellow dogs with brown skin.)
Now, from my reading of all of these texts, a Tweed water dog or Tweed water spaniel was actually a derivative of the St. John’s water dog. That is why it looked so much like a retriever. The fact that the dogs had such short hair suggests that they were derived from that “Newfoundland,” rather than the big one. It is likely that the native water spaniel in Northumberland and the Borders was red or yellow in color, rather than truly liver.
Also, in the O’Neill description, the dogs were being used to net salmon. That particular job is the exact task that the St. John’s water dogs performed in Newfoundland.
The dogs were celebrated waterfowl dogs, retrieving shot birds from the chilly and rough waters of the North Sea coast. Because this was a regional breed, it was not well-known in rest of Britain. Dudley Marjoribanks most likely knew about them and their reputation as superior retrievers.
However, in those days, the preferred color for a retriever was black. Other colors simply were not bred from. Perhaps Marjoribanks’s experience with Nous and his knowledge of the Tweed water dog gave him enough confidence to challenge the accepted wisdom of the day.
We do not know what Belle, the Tweed water dog chosen as Nous’s mate, looked like. We can only infer from the depictions of their offspring.
Nous appears to be rather dark-colored dog that was somewhat heavy in bone. If you saw him today, you would recognize him as a golden retriever.
Ada, Crocus, Primrose, and Cowslip, the four bitch puppies that resulted from that breeding, also looked a lot like goldens. Two depictions of those puppies exist– one of Ada and one of either Cowslip or Primrose. Ada is a rather short-haired dog. The dog said to be Cowslip or Primrose has rather wavy long hair.
Both of these dogs are lighter in color than their sire, and both are more lightly build than their sire. This suggests that Belle was a more lightly built dog than Nous and was of a pale gold color. The paler shades in the golden retriever most likely come from the Tweed water dog, for the red t0 yellow wavy-coated retrievers and red Irish and Gordon setters that were crossed into the strain are not that pale in color.
Belle was most likely a brown-skinned yellow, while Nous was a black-skinned yellow of the darker shade.
So now we have an idea about what the two foundational breeds that helped create the golden retriever looked like. You can see some of the Tweed water dog’s characteristics in some golden retrievers, especially in the performance-bred lines. This breed disappeared by the turn of the century, mostly by being absorbed into the retrievers. Regional dogs also had a hard time competing against the “improved” breeds of retriever that were coming to the fore as the nineteenth century progressed.
“Liver” was used, at that time, to describe almost any shade of brown, red, or yellow coated dog. “Light liver” and “fallow” or “fawn” could have referred to the dead-grass (as in the Chesapeake) or to what we know would call yellow or golden or buff or sedge.
The dog depicted in the painting is not Belle, but has been identified as a Tweed Water Spaniel by Gerald Massey, a well-known dog art specialist.
And of the recorded Nous x Belle offspring, Crocus was a male, owned by Dudley Marjoribanks’ son and daughter-in-law. Primrose, Cowslip, and Ada were females.
If you can find the engraving of “Brush” by A. Cooper, it is a good depiction of what an early retriever (or St. Johns Dog) might have looked like.
I don’t think that particular dog is Belle.
I’ve seen a photo of a Crocus, and he looks like a normal golden retriever.
I have seen three depictions of Ada: the portrait with 5th Lord Ilchester, another painting (full standing profile) with a horse, and a photograph published in Mrs Charlesworth’s first book (1933). Ada and her siblings would not look out of place today.
Lord Ilchester’s family kept retrievers (both yellow and black) up until the 1930s, although very few were registered with the Kennel Club.
Are you talking about the one with Mary Marjoribanks?
No, that is almost certainly not Ada in the portrait of Mary Marjoribanks on horseback. (That one has always been identified as either Primrose or Cowslip). There is a different painting of Ada, standing facing a riderless horse. It was published in one of the articles by 6th Lord Ilchester where he writes about the early Goldens, in 1952/53.
Retriverman! Have you seen this book? http://chestofbooks.com/animals/dogs/British-Dogs/index.html
Look at this: http://chestofbooks.com/animals/dogs/British-Dogs/Chapter-XXIX-The-Irish-Water-Spaniel.html
“When I first commenced to keep Irish water spaniels, many years ago, there were three strains, or rather varieties – one was known as the Tweed spaniel, having its origin in the neighbourhood of the river of that name. They were very light liver colour, so close in curl as to give me the idea that they had originally been a cross from a smooth-haired dog; they were long in tail, ears heavy in flesh and hard like a hound’s, but only slightly feathered – fore legs feathered behind, hind legs smooth, head conical, lips more pendulous than M’Carthy’s strain. The one I owned, which was considered to be one of the best of them, I bred from twice, and in each litter several of the puppies were liver and tan, being tanned from the knees downward and under the tail. I came to the conclusion that she, at any rate, had been crossed with the bloodhound. In Ireland, too, there exists two totally distinct varieties, which are now known as the North and the M’Carthy strains; the former are in appearance like a third-rate specimen of their southern relation, but are generally much smaller, have less feathering on legs, ears, and head, often a feathered tail, and oftener still are inclined to be crooked on their fore legs.”
Is this a truer depiction of Belle? http://golddoghistory.wordpress.com/2011/04/17/marjoribanks-commissioned-painting/
That looks like an Irish water spaniel, not a Tweed. It is a bit debatable on whether the Tweed was a water spaniel or a water dog, for it looked very much like a yellow or liver St. John’s water dog with a curlier coat. I don’t know if the dog in that painting that appears in that painting is a Tweed or not.
The so-called Northern Irish water spaniel looked like a Tweed water dog, too, but the Southern Irish water spaniel, which was much more common in those days– even being relatively popular in the US- had that topknot feature. Dudely Marjoribanks owned at least one Irish water spaniel or “Irish retriever” at Guisachan before starting his yellow retriever breeding program.
That dog doesn’t look much like a land spaniel, and its behavior towards the chickens in perplexing for a land spaniel. Often, retrievers were raised with rabbits or birds to teach them not to kill the animals they were sent to retrieve. It is no longer a common practice.
It cannot be Belle in an illustration dated 1863, as Belle did not arrive at Guisachan until after that date. The dog in that illustration resembles an Irish WS more than anything else.
In my opinion, Nous was not a “dark” dog at all: in his photographs he appears to be light golden everywhere except for ears and a darker “saddle” or “blanket” on the body. Keep in mind that the black-and-white photographs of that time were very sensitive to the color red, and tend to record anything with red in it, as darker than in actuality. Hence golden or reddish coats in old photos often appear darker than they actually were .
The fact that Ada, Crocus, Cowslip (Nous x Belle offspring) appear lighter in color does not necessarily mean that Belle was pale, or lighter than Nous (although she could have been): even today, one can get an assortment of shades from two yellow parents whether they are light or dark.
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/colorgen.html
The darker colors are dominant over the lighter ones. It’s possible that both of them carried the gene for the lighter color.
This is why you can breed “English cream goldens” together and get nothing but English creams, but if you breed any of the darker shades, you can get some variation.
Slightly joking here: First, one must specify “lighter” –lighter than what? One of the problems in talking about color in Goldens, is defining exactly what shades one has in mind! (perhaps we need a color chart with degrees of depth of color assigned a number!)
The references I have indicate that “true cream” –the palest shade of yellow, imitating white– is due to an additional factor affecting the pigment of phaeomelanin. It’s the factor that makes the White Shepherd, many Samoyeds, the Kuvasz, and some other white dogs which are genetically “yellow” but with this additional factor. “True cream” bred to “true cream” may well produce just more of the same; but breeding two of ” light golden” together, or two of “dark golden”, depending on their ancestry and what modifying factors may be present, may produce a range of shades.
Then there are the variations produced by the various color patterns that Goldens may carry, and which are often overlooked because they produce only shadings of the yellow/red continuum. All in all, it’s part of the fun of breeding Goldens.
Belle actually appeared at Guisachan in 1863. If you read on the GRCA website: “Tweed died in 1867, having never apparently been used for the stud and was replaced by Mr. Robertson with Belle, “1863, Ladykirk breed.””
http://www.grca.org/history_breed/origin.html
“Origin of the Yellow Retriever
By The Earl of Ilchester
(This article was printed in Country Life Magazine (England), July 25, 1952.)”
Well, that is confusing wording… I see it worded that way in other places as well. My copy of the stud book is packed so I can’t match it right now but will do so when I unpack it. Did she arrive in 1863 or 1867? Huge difference…
In Belle’s case, 1863 is the year she was whelped, not the year she arrived at Guisachan from Ladykirk (David Robertson’s home).
There is a photograph taken at Guisachan circa 1870 showing a number of keepers and staff standing in front of Guisachan House, with four dogs: Nous at the viewer’s far left, a deerhound and a black-and-tan marked dog at far right. Just right of Nous, partially concealed by the man standing to Nous’s left, can be seen the head and forelegs of a dog that could be of a deadgrass shade; some of us Golden historians think that this might be Belle
Even if Belle arrived after 1863, Tweed was there most definitely in 1863 and he was the same ‘Tweed Water Spaniel’ breed. I would think that a commissioned painting such as this one would most definitely contain a beloved dog of his. This water spaniel depicted is definitely lighter in color than today’s liver color.
Still, the very long ears on the dog in the 1863 illustration speak much more of the M’Carthy breed than of the Tweedside…and I’ve never read any reference to the Tweed having a topknot. Could Marjoribanks have had an Irish WS in his kennel at that time? Possibly. I’m at the Library, will check my copy of the Guisachan record book when I get home. Tho I don’t remember any dog being identified as an IWS. It could also be that the artist, when told to depict a “water spaniel”, drew what he thought was such– the Irish.
The only description that I have read of the Tweed water spaniel (in post above) says: “ears heavy in flesh and hard like a hound’s” and the dog in that picture doesn’t have a true top knot like an Irish water spaniel. If you look at it closely it just looks like it blends in with the rest of the curls on the body. The face is smooth so it is different from the rest. It does not look like a typical Irish Water spaniel at all.
Most of the commissions that I have done have been “on-site” except for the ancestor portraits or pets that have passed away which were from photos. It’s unclear what the case would have been here but Marjoribanks was well to do so I would suspect that the dog would have been his.
Do you have a copy of the stud book handy? I have mine packed right now…
Yeah. I think we should stop calling the Tweed a water spaniel for that reason. I call it the “Tweed water dog,” because that leads people into thinking that it was like the McCarthy breed or Southern Irish water spaniel.
There were at least two “water spaniels” that looked more like retrievers. The Tweed and the one in Northern Ireland, which was often parti-colored. The one in Northern Ireland has been described as looking like a pointer with a curly-coat, which is a very different dog from either the English or Irish water spaniels, as I have come to understand them. The Tweed was known to have a lot of “Newfoundland” in it, probably St. John’s water dog, and there was a Flat-coat fancier, Stanley O’Neill, who mistook some that he saw as a boy for curly-coated retrievers. They were being used to net salmon on the coast of Northumberland, which is the English part of the Tweed dog’s range.
I have that photo somewhere.
I think you’re right.
The black and tan dog could be another wavy-coat or a Gordon setter.
That photo is on the GRCA website, #6 in the slide show at
http://www.grca.org/history_breed/flash-ss.html.
The kennels at Guisachan held a number of dogs of several breeds, notably deerhounds and pointers as well as retrievers. There were also various terriers as housedogs (mentioned in Ishbel Marjoribanks’ biography).
Yes. The head shape seems to fit the description of a Tweed– conical shaped.