Canis lupus hominis

Posted in dog breeding, dog breeds | 19 Comments

19 Responses

1. on November 24, 2009 at 4:30 am HTTrainer

   I like this comment on breeders who continue to breed the dapple Dachs: “There is no solution for this sort of breeder. Greed is more powerful than compassion.”
   now on to consider the dapple grey mare or as the wizard said “that’s a horse of a different color”

   
   
2. on November 24, 2009 at 6:16 am Pai

   I’m really surprised that this is a recent development. Almost nobody I know thinks double-merle dogs are ‘okay’ to breed. The risks of getting severely deformed pups (who must be euthanized at birth or soon after) is too high.

   I’m actually becoming hopeful that we will end up seeing some significant improvements by the KC. It seems PDE, love it or hate it, is having it’s intended impact!

   
   
3. on November 24, 2009 at 8:35 pm Viatecio

   As much as everyone is into “rare” and oh-so-prittee animals, I’m surprised that I’ve actually never seen a double-dapple. This is really good news though, and I’m hoping that it does make some kind of difference. Too bad the AKC (as described by that article) is so bass-ackwards that it won’t follow suit.

   
   
   • on November 24, 2009 at 10:04 pm retrieverman

     I’ve seen a few double dapples. It’s the same thing as a double merle in an Australian [sic] shepherd.

     
     
4. on November 25, 2009 at 3:03 am kabbage

   The thing about this is that they are not only banning double dapples. They are banning dapple-dapple breedings and the acceptable pups that can result from them. Theoretically 3/4 of the puppies from dapple-dapple breedings will be acceptable colors (in a litter of 4, expect 1 double dapple, 2 dapples, and one non-dapple), and the KC is banning all of those offspring.

   Some Australian shepherd people do merle-merle breedings fairly regularly. I know at least one breeder will do merle-merle breedings without blinking if in that breeder’s opinion the parents are well-suited to one another. We’ve never discussed it, but I would guess any obvious double merles are destroyed at birth. I am okay with that, although I’m not sure I could do a merle to merle breeding myself.

   Some Sheltie people have kept and used double merles at stud. Merrilon the Blue-Tailed Fly was one of them, back in the 1970s (when I was following Sheltie bloodlines), and I think he had at least 9 champion offspring. The double merles can be valuable if you value merles because all the puppies will be merles (Mm) if you breed to a solid. From what I’ve read, since the eye and hearing defects are related to the double dose of merle, they are not passed on to the Mm puppies.

   
   
   • on November 25, 2009 at 3:14 am retrieverman

     That’s what it means.

     It’s fine with me.

     I personally think that merle is okay in these herding breeds because the genetics of merling is pretty well-known in those breeds.

     I’m not so certain about dachshunds.

     Of course, gun dogs are much simpler. The only breed that rarely comes in merle isn’t even a real working gun dog. http://merlecockers.com/

     Do I know where this merling comes from?

     No.

     Do I think some people are breeding them because they are cool and can make some money off of them?

     Yes.

     
     
     • on November 26, 2009 at 12:21 am Cait

       Actually, dapple’s pretty well known effects-wise in Dachshunds, too. There is at least one other hound breed (Dunker, IIRC) that comes in the pattern, and the Cardigan Welsh Corgi’s merle color is possibly from their Teckel ancestry as well. (I’ve seen one source that claims it’s from teckels and one that claims it from collie crosses in the 18th century which also gave it the prick ears.)

       I love merles. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with breeding them responsibly and carefully. I do think that double merle breedings should be done only with the utmost of care, but to ban the color entirely because some people are idiots is ridiculous.

       
       
       • on November 26, 2009 at 12:25 am retrieverman

         I’ve always felt that the Cardi was more of a “cur” dog than the Pembroke.

         
         
     • on November 27, 2009 at 1:34 am peggy Richter

       Dapple in dachsunds and merle in “herding dogs” is the same gene. See
       http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/merle.html
       It’s apparently a fairly old mutation given it’s widespread appearance in a number of breeds. It’s kept mainly because merle creates a “flash” appearance. As Schmutz’ article shows and as another site on Australian Shepherd color shows (see http://www.ashgi.org/color/Cryptic_Merles.html ) there is such a thing as a “cryptic” merle — a dog that is genetically merle but which is not apparently a merle dog. It’s unfortunate that merle is a “semi-lethal” and even Mm dogs often have “issues” like iris columbas.

       vr, Peggy Richter

       
       
       • on November 27, 2009 at 1:37 am retrieverman

         All of which is correct. I’ve written more about it.

         http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2009/11/26/kennel-club-bans-puppies-from-dapple-to-dapple-breedings-from-its-registry-ii/

         
         
5. on November 25, 2009 at 3:30 am sammystory

   Hi Retrieverman:

   Your readers might find the following – and related – articles, on the genetic costs of inbreeding, interesting.

   http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2583235/BBC-may-cut-Crufts-over-disease-riddled-pedigree-breeds.html

   BBC may cut ties with Crufts Dog Show.

   http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7569064.stm

   From Samuel
   http://www.sammystory.net

   
   
6. on November 27, 2009 at 4:18 am always kinky

   But is the dappled pattern actually linked to the health issues? Is there a genetic test which proves the coloration creates the health problems? Or is it that a few dogs in the ancestry of these patterned dogs had health problems and passed them on?

   When a kennel registry restricts breeding of color patterns, rather than restricting the entire breed based on health issues which can be tested for, what does that mean?

   Does the Kennel Club require all dachshunds to be cleared of eye disease before breeding? I don’t know–I’m just asking. Do they require clean and clear blood tests? Hip X-rays as appropriate? Cardiograms for heart disease? Do they limit breeding of offspring from dogs who have died from cancer at an early age?

   I’m not saying they should do this. Just asking IF they do.

   
   
   • on November 27, 2009 at 1:25 pm retrieverman

     The KC is just now coming with a ton of reforms.

     It’s well-known that breeding merle to mere (dapple to dapple) produces a certain percentage of puppies that have very real problems: http://www.lethalwhites.com/

     
     
7. on November 27, 2009 at 5:58 am peggy Richter

   yes, the dapple condition is linked to health — note the 1953 date of this article: in the Journal of Genetics DOI: 10.1007/BF02981535 — Arnold Sorsby1 and J. B. Davey1
   (1) Ophthalmological Research Unit, The Royal College of Surgeons and The Royal Eye Hospital, UK

   Received: 8 August 1953

   Summary 1. ‘Wall eye’—partial or total discoloration of the iris—is known to occur frequently but not constantly in dappled dachshunds, merled collies, and other merled breeds of dog. Observations are recorded on the dappled dachshund, the merled collie, and the merled miniature collie, showing that in contrast to the inconstant iris anomaly the tapetum of such animals is always anomalous. It is generally totally lacking and when present it is rudimentary. The anomalies of the tapetum are easily observed with the ophthalmoscope.
   2. It is known that the dappled or merled animal is heterozygous, and it has been suggested that there is a geneM responsible for merling. Evidence is brought forward to show that the gene is intermediate in effect, independent from the allelic series for coat colour, autosomal in location, and productive of gross ocular anomalies in the homozygote, which also shows marked depigmentation of the coat and frequently deafness as well. In the simplex state the gene is therefore productive of ‘physiological’ variations, whilst in the duplex state its effects are pathological.

   VR, Peggy Richter

   
   
8. on August 13, 2012 at 7:21 pm Chris

   look i have a double dapple dachshund an he’s perfectly healthy. i didn’t breed him but i don’t see a problem. and secondly neither of his parents were dapple so his is hereditary and should be able to register him.

   
   
   • on August 13, 2012 at 7:37 pm retrieverman

     This is a problem of statistics, not a problem of anecdote.

     You don’t understand that each double dapple/double merle breeding has the potential and the very high probability of producing a dog with these problems

     Because of the probability of producing defective dogs with this breeding practice, it is one to be discouraged.

     And shouting that my dog is fine is not an argument. It’s an anecdote, n of one.

     To educate yourself check out these posts on BorderWars:

     http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/?s=double+merle

     
     
   • on August 13, 2012 at 8:07 pm DesertWindHounds

     If neither of the parents are dapple then you cannot have a double dapple Dachshund. ‘Dapple’ is a dominant gene; one of the parents MUST have the gene in order for a puppy to be dapple. Dapple does not just magically appear, although you can have ‘cryptic dapples’ where the markings are not evident to the eye.

     All traits are ‘hereditary’ to some extent so I don’t see your point. The reason the KC doesn’t register litters produced from a dapple x dapple breeding is due to the high rate of possible defects in the puppies. Each puppy has a 25% chance of being double dapple, or having two copies of the dapple (merle) gene, with attendant eye and ear problems including blindness and/or deafness.

     
     
   • on August 13, 2012 at 8:10 pm retrieverman

     He can’t be a double dapple. He’s can only be a single one.

     
     
9. on August 13, 2012 at 9:14 pm DesertWindHounds

   They are mistaken in some way. Either at least one of the parents is a dapple, or the dog is not a dapple. Or maybe the understanding of the term is not there.

   
   

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