The photo above comes from W.E. Mason’s Dogs of All Nations.
The description goes as follows:
Color: Black, grizzle, reddish brown, either self colored or with tan, white ar white with large dark patches or brindle, with or without tan markings. White on the chest and legs is permissible, but not desirable. Height: 22 in. Weight: 55 lbs.
This is a medium sized dog [emphasis mine], rather long in the body but well built, and is very game and intelligent. The head is lean, skull broad between the ears and long leaves muzzle. The ears are of medium size, carried erect, and pointed forward. The eye are almond shaped, dark in color, full of “fire” and intelligence, but often sour. The body is rather narrow, with deep chest, straight back and strong loins. The tail well coated, carried low when the dog is quiet and gaily but not over the back whe excited. There are three varieties as to coat: A. Smooth coated. Short dense are hard, round the neck the coat is longer and harder. B. Long haired, wavy and hard the hair on the head partially covering the eyes, and with well marked beard are moustaches and tail well feathered. C. Wire haired. Straight, hard and wiry, the on the head and legs being especially short and hard with beard and eyebrows we developed.
The description of the GSD of this time period reminds me more of the Dutch shepherd. The wire-haired and long-haired varieties described could be easily found in certain modern wire-haired Dutch shepherds.
We also know that German shepherd come in a faulty long-coat, which is more like a Tervuren’s, that also exists in Dutch shepherds.
Look closely at the photo above.
Notice how the back is not sloping.
The dog is not exaggerated in the least. It is a very moderate animal.
It is quite a bit smaller than the GSD’s one finds today, and it’s certainly smaller than the so-called “old-fashioned” German shepherds that weigh in excess of a 120 pounds.
The real old-fashioned GSD was smaller, not larger.
And if you want to see something similar to it, look at the Dutch and Belgian shepherds.
Beautiful dog! I didn’t know they were originally smaller dogs. Painful to think of what has transpired over the past 70+ years to transform that beautiful, structurally sound dog into the mess we see today.
A woman in my neighborhood imported a dog from German working stock, and although it has the distinctive gait, it has a near-level topline–perhaps there’s a bit of a slope to it that at least gives the illusion of added power in the hindquarters, though I don’t think I’ve ever seen it standing still–and it is very moderate in build. It’s a beautiful dog.
I have absolutely no clue if this is typical of the dogs in Germany or not, but I’d be very curious.
The ones from Germany are generally better.
But I bet it’s not smaller than your flat-coat.
No–my flattie weighs about 53 pounds in good working weight, though at two and a half she’s still maturing a little bit still. This dog is probably about the size of my Lab–about 75 pounds at his best weight.
I think if I ever had a similar dog to a GSD, I’d have a malinois–nice, nice dogs.
Very interesting looking dog. Very different conformation from contemporary German Shepherds. Looks more functional really. Would you say it is more like a Malinois?
Sammy
The German show-line (“high-line”) dogs are structurally no better than the American show dogs.
Different, but not better.
They have what we call the Banana Back. It is freakish, and is getting more so in the past few years.
Temperaments are going to shit, too. Look up the practice called the “midnight trial.”
My second SAR partner was a granddaughter of the last show Sieger who had a reputation as a good working dog. He was Sieger in the 80’s. And even he had a roach to his back. Fortunately Mel’s sire was bred to a working-line bitch, and she had a very moderate build.
There are still working German Shepherds out there:
http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/manfred-english/index.html
Whle there is some overlap, German Shepherds are a larger and more robust dog than the Belgians (von Stephanitz has a comparison in his book that’s quite good). I’m not sure the 53 pounds is legitimate as Von Stephanitz describes a more robust dog than that. Further, one of the functions of the GSD was military/police and a 53 pound dog is at the minimum for effective man-work. (I believe the US military still uses 55 pounds as their minimum weight for a sentry/man-dog). Belgians are smaller than GSDs but manage because their speed gives them that extra inertial force (speed + mass = force) in taking down an adult man. For comparison to Belgians, there’s an excellent slide show of Belgian sheepdogs in the working format at
Articles plus photos: http://www.bsca.info/history.html
Slide show of companion and working dogs: http://www.bsca.info/pbSlides.html
There are still some Belgians like that now:
http://www.thetroutbum.com/en/outdoors/dogs/44-groenendaelbrukshistorikk
http://hebiron.com/
and http://www.kuymal.com/page7.html
Vr, Peggy Richter
Dutch shepherds tend to be heavier dogs than Malinois. I think that is a fairer comparison.
But they weren’t meant to be giants.
So are Malinois basically ‘preserved’ original GSDs under another name that had some different crossbreeding early on?
From what I’ve read, the Belgian Shepherd dogs–Malinois is one variety, and I won’t try to spell the others–have a separate history going back more than a century–but surely there’s some common ancestry back there, but I don’t know where.
In the FCI, there are four varietie: the Malinois/Mechelaar (smooth-haired and fawn or rarely silver, an even more rarely brindle), the Laekenois (which is like a Malinois with wire hair), the Groenendael (black with long-hair, the AKC calls it a Belgian sheepdog), and the Tervuren (which is sable with long hair).
These are interbreeding varieties in the FCI (although there are some rule against breeding mating certain varieties together). In the AKC, the Laekenois isn’t recognized, and the other three are separate breeds.
Groenendael sometimes have sable puppies that would be called Tervuren. I believe I also read somewhere that Tervs also carry a gene for recessive black, so they could have puppies that could be called Groenendaels.
Dutch shepherds are a bit different. They are always brindle (gold brindle or silver brindle). However, they come in long-haired, smooth, and wire-haired coat varieties.
However, the breed has been interbred with its Belgian cousins quite a bit: http://www.sevenpineskennel.com/dutch_shepherd_history.htm
Check out this Dutch shepherd and compare: http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/dutch.JPG
Malinois also come in gray, and sometimes their fawn coloration is a very dark red: http://www.caltechgirlsworld.mu.nu/archives/images/ranger.jpg
I’m trying to find a good photo of a gray malinois, but that color is faulty with the AKC.
Here’s someone who thinks Dutch shepherds are just Brindle Malinois: http://www.vomartileskennel.com/dutch_shepherd.htm
I don’t know how this person handles the fact that Dutch shepherds also come in long-haired and wire-haired varieties, which Malinois definitely aren’t.
We could make all of these one super breed and call them Benelux shepherds or Low countries shepherds.
“We could make all of these one super breed and call them Benelux shepherds or Low countries shepherds.”
Sure–but I’ve enjoyed every malinois I’ve met, and been annoyed by every Belgian sheepdog/Groenendael I’ve ever met, so for me personally I don’t find that idea on the surface at least terribly appealing.
Perhaps it was the owners/trainers. I don’t have a ton of experience with them. I’d be curious to hear if anyone else has noticed a temperament/personality difference in the different Belgian breeds.
I have to disagree with that site in that they state that the Dutchie is just a brindle Malinois. While they do have the same body type, Dutchies tend to be slightly thicker (NOT fatter) and heavier than Malis. Perhaps they are just saying that the two have been interbred so much for working purposes that the “mixed” version is what should be considered the norm?
That’s what I respect about the working dog people: they breed function to function, with an occasional glance at breed purity. I see a lot of Mali/GSD mixes today, and of course the Dutchie/Mali mixes that create some awesome working dogs. Granted, they probably don’t do a lot of that mixing with the sporting Rotties, Dobes, etc…but as long as the dog is healthy and can work, there’s a bitch out there who’s a good complement, and there’s a demand for that pairing, there’s little question as to why NOT breed the two.
This is my local Dutchie kennel, by the way…they host Bernard Flinks every year. Great people, great dogs and a location that is actually close by! http://www.libertyhoevekennels.com/
Malinois versus Dutch shepherd in attack styles.
I seriously wonder about those helpers/trainers. I can’t and won’t comment on their competence and ability to train, but I would like to know if they did all the OOH/AAH and falling simply for dramatic effect. It takes either a good dog or a misstep to take down a professional helper, and of the trials I’ve attended AND the many posted on the YooToobe, it’s not as common as what’s seen on that little clip. Granted, this is a prey takedown scenario and no prey animal is going to do a clean pivot like a well-trained helper…
Again, not commenting on the trainers’ themselves…just a bit skeptical of the physical drama they present upon each bite. One can only hope that this isn’t the only exposure to bitework that the average person gets. Though a very poor representation of what really is entailed in “attacking on command,” I guess it really does pass for what goes on as a wolf takes down a fleeing animal.
The purpose of this show was to demonstrate possible differences between modern wolves and dire wolves. It’s from a show about the dire wolf.
Beautiful, functional dog in that photo; what has happened to the show conformation German Shepherd is, to me, one of the greatest tragedies in dogdom. A lot of people don’t realize what a recent breed the German Shepherd is–only since the late 1800’s/early 1900’s. As for the “old timey, large-boned type”, I remember when adds for GSD’s used that line a lot in the classifieds–“old timey” only in the sense of a few human generations back–the originals were NOT larger as now. Reminds me of the adds I see now for Labrador Retrievers; “block-headed type labs for sale”(as if a blocky head were the most important thing to look for in a Lab!). I have encountered a lot of interesting possibilities in the origins of GSD’s over the years; undoubtedly they are largely descended from indigenous shepherd type dogs similar, and closely related to the Belgian breeds, and if I were trying to restore health and function and “recreate” the breed to look like that photo, I would use outcrosses to the various Belgian types. There is the persistant rumor that some wolf blood was used in some of the original crosses. American and British breeders I’ve discussed this with vehemently deny it; German breeders I have talked to readily admit it–so perhaps there might be more to the British name for GSD’s, “Alsation Wolf Dog”, than just a romantic moniker? I have seen wolf-hybrids that were first generation wolf X GSD crosses that looked suspiciously like some of the early photos of the first GSD’s! And the Sarloos Wolfhund, a European breed purposely created by crossing wolves and GSD’s(and an accepted breed in Europe) also look like these early GSD’s. Maybe just a coincidence, but interesting…..I have also talked to Norweigan Elkhound breeders who believe Elkhounds, or Elkhound-type dogs were used to develop GSD’s–Elkhounds do look amazingly like cobby, compact, curl-tailed GSD’S! I have also seen dogs that were Elkhound crosses with other dogs that looked amazingly like German Shepherds. Whatever, it’s high time somebody started recreating this once most marvelous and versatile breed, whatever it takes! And put FUNCTION FIRST!!!!!
Lane, you might be interested to know (if you don’t already) that a recently-developed breed that highly RESEMBLES the wolf was bred from mixing the husky, malamute and German Shepherd. It goes by a couple of names, I know Tamaskan is one of them and there’s another I can’t remember and even though they’re the same ‘breed,’ they both claim separate registries and clubs and whatnot. One might argue that there is ‘wolf’ way way back there in the genes because of the two northern breeds, but even though this dog looks like a skinny, leggy wolf…there is no wolf whatsoever unless you count it’s wayback ancestors.
I attended quite a few wolf hybrid “rendezvous” in the past–they were quite the education! I lost interest when the ones I was attending began squabbling over conformation in poor imitation of AKC dog shows(I think it was done to gain a sense of respectability; wolf-hybrid people being often seriously villified!) Anyway, at one “show”, there was a dog entered as a fairly high percent wolf(many of them turn out not to be)–in this case, the fellow was just interested to see how well his animal would do–it won, if I remember correctly! He only then told them his animal had NO recent wolf in it–it was a GSD X Belgian(the black) Shepherd! Apparently those crosses are VERY “wolfy”! And this is the criteria for the conformation judging–how “wolfy” the animals are in their percentile categories…..
Oops; brain fart–the “wolfy” looking cross was a Malamute X Belgian Shepherd cross….these two breeds also made up most of the animal used in the movie “The Journey Of Natty Gan”, as well as the main canine portraying “White Fang”(same animal; “Clyde”, I think was his name) in the first Disney movie by that name(though it is obvious in the latter that several very different looking animals were used to portray White Fang!), but he was at least one-quarter wolf. Some friends of mine got to meet the owner/trainer, Clint Rowe(a really wonderful, conscientious trainer from all I’ve heard–not an easy thing in Hollywood!), and told me about it, is where I heard that from. No doubt that animal was also quite “wolfy” in appearance. I have not seen a “Tamaskan” yet, though, only heard a little(something to look up!). There was a fellow that used to advertise in the outdoor magazines years ago “Timber Shepherds” which were GSD X Wolf combos…..
That particular dog’s name was Jed.
And on youtube, he’s called a wolf hybrid or a pure malamute.
I knew he had something else in him.
Clint Rowe plays the man with the whip in the Journey of Natty Gann.
There are two European breeds, the Czecholslovakian Vlcak from the former Czechoslovakia and the Saarloos wolfhond from the Netherlands, that are considered domestic dog breeds, even though they are derived from crossing wolves with GSD’s. The former has the European wolf in its bloodline, while the other has some kind of Canadian wolf in it.
Here’s the dog Lane is talking about:
“Color: Black, grizzle, reddish brown, either self colored or with tan, white ar white with large dark patches or brindle, with or without tan markings. White on the chest and legs is permissible, but not desirable.”
Strange assortment of colors. Have you ever seen a Panda Shepherd? They are ‘white with large dark patches.’
White is verboten in GSD’s.
And pandas are said to not be purebred: http://kerschberger.com/GermanShepherdTypes_files/panda.JPG
I have no idea.
But the landrace herder that is the ancestral strain of the GSD still exists in Germany: http://www.a-a-h.de/
It’s actually a bunch of different types, and it includes the sheep poodle type and the “tiger dogs” (Australian shepherd and Koolie ancestor). However, there are erect eared dog that could pass for a GSD in this registry.
My reading is that it’s a dominant mutation. The only breed I can think of off the top of my head with dominant parti/irish is the boxer.
If I were going to get a German shepherd, I get a dog that is actually used by German shepherds.
Very interesting. I didn’t know so many other working breeds were experiencing these problems in their conformation.
Yes, “Jed”! I need to get copies of those movies. He was a splendid animal…….
Whatever happened to all the talk about the Czech line of GSD’s? Did it turn out it to some kind of fraud or hoax?
In response to icr above, I’m curious about what you mean re: fraud or hoax. Czech line GSD’s are alive and well. Doesn’t mean that they’re necessarily good quality dogs (there are always some individuals with problems), but they’re around, and pretty close to the older style GSD like in the picture above. Check out the advertisement linked below if you’re interested. (Note I’m not buying or selling the dog, or in any way benefiting from promoting the linked site.) It’s just an ad for someone selling a border patrol line GSD:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/91449.html
Gosh, that is a handsome dog.
I wouldn’t call him particularly handsome (even though I’m a fan of working line GSDs), more functional, but his sire’s eye-catching:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/481262.html
If he wasn’t shown stacked you could see that his back is actually straight. Looks is very much a matter of personal taste, though, and irrelevant with working GSD. What matters is the working ability. I don’t know why I didn’t think of it right away but if you have questions about Czech GSDs, or the history of working GSDs generally, the gentleman you might want to talk to is Hans at AlpineK9:
http://www.alpinek9.com/
He’s very generous with his time and answering questions on the forum attached to the Pedigree Database, and he’s one of the original people to import Czech dogs into the U.S.
(Again with the disclaimers: I’m not in any way affiliated with any of this, or benefiting from it. Just someone who likes working line GSDs and has what is likely a Czech dog — I don’t know for certain because he’s adopted.)
I also really enjoy your blog, and thought I might contribute a little with something that I know about.
Even though the bulk of my forebears were from Germany, I know very little about the dog that they likely used to herd sheep and guard their little farms.
The reason why I didn’t say anything about Czech line GSD’s is that I hadn’t heard of them. I had heard of Byelorussian GSD’s, which are sometimes called Byelorussian Ovtcharkas. (Byelorussia is the Soviet name for Belarus.)
Oh, that wasn’t meant as a question about why you hadn’t explored the subject! I just thought I’d contribute to the dog-information sharing in case you weren’t familiar with them. (I was also curious about the previous poster’s remark about hoaxes.)
Czech GSDs are just one particular country’s take on the working line GSD after all — it’s not even close to being a separate breed like the Belgian shepherd or the Dutch shepherd. Czech (or East German) working line is just known for being “closer” to the original GSD in conformation.
East-European Shepherds (or Byelorussian Ovtcharka) proper are different given that they had other breeds mixed in. Nothing wrong with the dogs of course, just not pure GSD.
And here is a helpful link that sums up the differences fairly well:
http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html
The only thing I would add is that the true Alt Deutsche Schaeferhund is (to the best of my knowledge) not just a long haired GSD, but the original landrace that gave rise to it, which consequently shows considerable variation in appearance. Some look like Berger Picard, others like Spitz, etc. What matters is that they can herd and guard the farm yard.
Sorry to double post, but the link explains more efficiently than I could.
Around the time of the collapse of the Soviet Empire there was some stuff that seemed to depict the Czech line as a sort of “super-dog” developed by the Czech state security organs. In that sort of case you expect some hyperbole- “fraud” or “hoax” were regrettable overstatements I made when posting hurriedly.
In the back of my mind I was probably thinking of some old ads I recalled about “top secret Soviet Bloc muscle-building tips” and the like.
Like this: http://www.articlesbase.com/fitness-articles/-isometric-training-fact-or-muscle-building-hoax-part-2-74764.html
If they really had all of these advantages, they would’ve taken us over a long time ago.
Ah, understood. Yes, communist “boasting” for want of a better word. Did you know that Russia has the world’s biggest midget and the world’s fastest watch? That sort of thing.
The Czech dogs aren’t “super dogs” by any stretch. They range in temperament and health just like any other GSDs. I’ve had a working line GSD before, and this current dog is comparatively intense. Not for the inexperienced handler by any means, though he’s not aggressive. I’ve heard others with Czech dogs describe theirs the same way. Some people love it, especially if they want a dog with the drive to excel at Ring sport or Schutzhund, but that highly strung temperament can be a drawback, too. And of course they’re all individuals, too, so I’m sure there are some with lower drives.
Thanks for the explanation!
Retrieverman wrote: I don’t know how this person handles the fact that Dutch shepherds also come in long-haired and wire-haired varieties, which Malinois definitely aren’t.
— but Belgians come in longhair (Tervuren & Groenendael) and wire haired (Lakenois) versions as well as the shorthair (Malinois). As a Belgian Sheepdog (Groenendael) owner and breeder of about 30 years, I believe these dogs are seperate breeds although very closely related. There are others just as convinced they are all “one” breed. It’s a matter of if you are a “seperator” or a “lumper”.
Retrieverman wrote: We could make all of these one super breed and call them Benelux shepherds or Low countries shepherds.
== one could combine all those retrievers into one too. But I don’t think Goldens are identical to flatcoats any longer, even if the one derived from the other. Nor are these the same as Labradors. It is always possible to find overlap but it’s also possible to make clear distinctions. At some point someone’s “strain” of dogs becomes a “breed” of dogs. The Belgians, the Dutch shepherds (there is, by the way, a longhaired edition of the Dutchie), the Picardy shepherd, Bouvier (both the still existing and the extinct editions), German Shepherds and Giant Schnauzers all have some similar histories and some common ancestors. If one carefully selected, one could find registered dogs that ran from one to the other in a pretty much “seamless” range. There’s enough similarity to argue they should all be combined and yet plenty of differences to argue they are all different breeds.
As for taking the guy down — it can happen, but no, it isn’t a regular thing.
— Peggy Richter
Peggy–Do you yourself notice a temperament difference in the different Belgian breeds?
I don’t know if I have a preference for the Malinois–which to me seems equally driven and active, but a bit more workmanlike and less exuberant (and quieter) than the Belgian Sheepdogs I’ve met–or if I just prefer the people who trained the dogs! Or perhaps I just haven’t met enough of either of them, and the differences I’ve seen just happen to be the differences in dogs in general.
Genuinely curious.
And I honestly like Dutch shepherds a bit more than Malinois.
Belgian sheedog = Groenendael.
There are also wire-haired Dutch shepherds that look like Laekenois.
There is a Bouvier des Ardennes that looks similar.
I suppose these all were once the same thing– a kind of interbreeding landrace.
However, from what I’ve seen of Dutch shepherds, they are quite a bit more stoutly built than the Malinois and its kin.
I actually think that allowing Dutch and all the Belgian shepherds to interbreed is a healthy thing, and it could be a future salvation form many breeds of dog.
But the question becomes: what do you call a brindle dog with shepherd characteristics? To me Malinois aren’t any color but gray, tawny, or red with a black mask.
BTW, have you ever seen what happens when you cross a golden retriever and a malinoi?
(warning: has music)
http://www.goldmali.co.uk/maligold1.html
Most of the world the Belgian Shepherd is the breed that encompass the 4 varieties, for some reason AKC has seen it fit to divide the breeds. To me this makes as much sense as dividing choco, blck,yel labs into 3 breeds. On paper at least all Belgians are identical in body type and temperament. The working breeders have no problem mixing them to produce good working dogs. Show breeders interested in the looks like to separate them.
I actually think golden and flat-coated retrievers should have remained the same breed for exactly the same reason.
From what I’ve observed, I would contend that now the flat-coat and the golden are significantly different from each other, not just in looks, but in temperament and to some degree the manner in which they work. Even the working goldens.
That was a mistake for both breeds, and one think that could be rectified.
And Groenendael aren’t often used for work in this country, and they are different from Malinois that are and Malinois that aren’t. In Europe, these differences are supposed to be less extreme.
I see nothing more than a theme and variation on the same dog in the case of goldens and flat-coats. It’s just that goldens have also been bred over and over for obedience trials and flat-coats haven’t.
yes, i think there is a temperament difference between Groenendael, Malinois and Tervuren (I haven’t seen enough Lakenois to have a solid basis for an opinion on them). The Tervuren is the most “laid back” of the three. The Groenendael is the most independent. I don’t know if I would say the Groenendael is more hyper than Malinois — I would say the Malinois I’ve seen have been more hyper than the Groenendael. BUT, a Groenendael is more reactive. That’s a plus if you have a dog that knows what it’s doing and has a good work ethic. It can be a total train wreck if you have a dog that is misbehaving or isn’t trained. Keep in mind I breed for a working line of Belgian Sheepdogs (herding) and am comparing them to Malinois that are mostly protection sport dogs. Obviously I prefer the black long hairs or I wouldn’t have them. The right Belgian Sheepdog will “get it done” whatever task you ask. The wrong one is the dog from hell. In herding, they are much more intimidating to the livestock than the Tervuren or Malinois. Again, a plus if you are working cattle or something difficult; not so good when it’s 3 or 5 head of spooky sheep. This is not a dog you can dominate. They are either a serious junior partner or they aren’t the dog for you.
VR, Peggy Richter (Kuymal Belgians).
Thanks for the reply, Peggy–I think your observations explain my reactions to the dogs I’ve met, but also reinforce the training issue possibility in what I’ve seen.
I appreciate your insight.