Canis lupus hominis

Posted in dog breeds | Tagged golden retriever, retriever | 40 Comments

40 Responses

1. on December 2, 2009 at 2:06 am Peggy Richter

   I would think they do. Schmutz’s page discusses the various colors, and Goldens would be KKee as a rule.
   http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html But given that as you’ve noted, the St John’s dogs and some early retrievers had brindle, it wouldn’t be outside the realm of possibility that the Golden in this particular breeding was K Kbr ee. Bred to a Malinois kkayEE, the result would be perfectly logical — none of the puppies “golden”, but some black (KkEe) and some fawn brindles (KbrkayEE). None would be simple fawns either, since they’d have either the K or the Kbr from their Golden sire.

   Vr, Peggy Richter

   
   
   • on December 2, 2009 at 2:08 am retrieverman

     Goldens also are B/B, in addition to be being e/e. Very few are bbee.

     Usually, if you cross a golden with anything ( including sable collie or brindle boxer), you get black puppies.

     
     
     • on March 13, 2010 at 5:45 pm M.R.S.

       Goldens can (and many do) carry any of the color patterns sable, brindle, bicolor (black-and-tan like a Doberman), or agouti. The patterns are not evident, because ee prohibits black hair. But, the coat shadings so often found on Goldens may be related to these color patterns, expressed as shading of the yellow/red.

       Some years ago a friend’s Golden got accidently bred by the working collie (sable) next door. Two puppies were black-and-tan (very brightly marked), one was a rich sable. They were lovely dogs! Solid black is, however, the most common result of cross-breeding.

       Back in the 2950s we used to see Goldens with the banded hairs typical of agouti (“wild color”) in shades of yellow/red. These were invariably excellent texture, practical coats. Unfortunately, seldom seen today.

       And, I’ve seen apparently purebred Labradors with dark brindled markings in bicolor pattern. As noted, typical in the breed and its forebears many, many years ago.

       
       
       • on March 13, 2010 at 5:53 pm retrieverman

         So do you think it comes from the Cao de Castro Laboreiro?

         Sable could come from collies. Collies were often crossed into wavy-coats.

         Some collies (generally BC’s and ES’s) have what is called “clear sable,” which is e/e.

         
         
         • on March 13, 2010 at 6:01 pm M.R.S.

           The Laboreiro (Portuguese farm dog) could well have been the source of brindle. Very likely dogs of that sort could have been taken to Newfoundland by Portuguese fishermen, and entered the “melting pot” that produced the St. Johns dog and its ilk, that went to Great Britain to become our modern British retrievers.
           it is also quite likely that some working collies entered the gene pool of retrievers sometime in the 19th century…as well as working setters, water spaniels, and others.

           
           
       • on March 13, 2010 at 6:04 pm retrieverman

         Some one was trying to breed a dog called a “golden collie” a few years back.

         Sable collies and golden retrievers were crossed, producing dogs that looked like black flat-coats!

         I did link to a site on Geocities that had a brindle Chesapeake. It was brindle throughout its body. It wasn’t like the bicolor brindle Labradors I’ve seen: http://puppyintraining.com/brindle-labrador-retrievers/

         I’ve also seen this color in colored bull terriers. There is at least one Manchester terrier/bulldog cross (called a Staffie) behind the colored bull terrier lines.

         
         
         • on March 13, 2010 at 6:17 pm M.R.S.

           Yup…Chessies can carry brindle factor and also saddle/mask markings. They’re just not so distinct because they are “brown on brown”. Possibly inherited from the various local “‘huntin’ dogs”, including hounds, used in the early foundation breedings.

           
           
   • on December 2, 2009 at 2:11 am retrieverman

     There are also golden retriever/boxer crosses that are brindle (but are derived from fawn boxers):

     http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/goldenboxer.htm

     My “golden boxer” was black:

     

     
     
   • on December 2, 2009 at 2:12 am retrieverman

     All goldens are e/e, which means they can’t produce any pigment except the “white”/yellow/red to mahogany color in their fur.

     
     
     • on December 2, 2009 at 3:04 am Jess

       If they are all e/e they could be hiding brindle easily, and you’d never know unless you crossed to another kind of dog.

       
       
       • on December 2, 2009 at 3:10 am retrieverman

         We have one color in golden retrievers. Even the white ones are e/e.

         Most of them are B/B.

         In retrievers, those are the only colors we pay any attention to.

         b/b’s are brown skinned dogs or liver/chocolate dogs. B/b or B/B is a black dog or a black skinned yellow. E/e or E/E’s are liver/chocolate or black. e/e’s are the “white”/yellow/red/ mahogany dogs.

         We have had brindle pop up in golden boxers that were bred from fawn boxers and brindle goldendoodles.

         My golden boxer was black and derived from a brindle boxer: http://retrieverman.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/golden-boxer-standing.jpg

         
         
       • on December 2, 2009 at 3:13 am retrieverman

         Wavy-coated retrievers and Labradors also have brindle as an historical color. It was usually like these modern brindle Labradors: http://puppyintraining.com/brindle-labrador-retrievers/

         In Chessies, the brindling can be on the entire body: http://media.photobucket.com/image/brindle%20chessies/ChronosAmstaff/IMG_0061.jpg

         (It’s hard to see).

         
         
2. on December 2, 2009 at 3:39 am Patti S.

   As I’ve mentioned in several private posts to Scottie throughout the day, brindle, fawn & sable genes are masked by the “ee” of Goldens. But there have been several brindle flatcoats, and solid color flatcoats have been discovered to carry non solid versions of the “K” gene in DNA tests.

   Yes, goldens are ee. But a golden with a kb, kbr or ky that’s not expressed because of the golden’s homozygous e may be expressed when crossed with another breed that has an E gene. The parent golden may have the k for brindle or sable or fawn, which wouldn’t be seen, but might be passed on to a mixed-breed puppy whose other parent carries EE or Ee.

   VetGen now has a test for “K” – See the VetGen Link here – http://www.vetgen.com/canine-coat-color.html

   I would guess that golden breeders wouldn’t normally pay to check for it, since all goldens are ee. Why pay for something that isn’t necessary, unless you are planning outcrosses.

   
   
   • on December 2, 2009 at 3:42 am retrieverman

     I was originally confused because brindle is dominant to fawn in boxers.

     For some reason, I thought that brindle would be dominant to e/e.

     My knowledge of inheritance of the colors within a breed is pretty good.

     When you start mixing them, then it gets confusing.

     Brindle is a very important color in the history of retrievers, but it appears to have disappeared.

     I’m also rethinking the silver Labrador, because there are ash-colored Chessies, which are also diluted livers.

     
     
     • on December 2, 2009 at 3:52 am Jess

       I know of one litter of Afghans where the bitch was e/e ‘carrying’ brindle. She produced brindle pups. I don’t remember the color of the sire, but the bitch had a brindle parent. She was cream with no black sabling at all.

       
       
       • on December 2, 2009 at 4:03 am retrieverman

         I must admit that I was ignorant here. My only brindle to e/e breeding came from a golden retriever/boxer cross in which all 9 puppies were black.

         In boxers, brindle is dominant to fawn, but that’s about as far as my knowledge went.

         
         
         • on December 2, 2009 at 4:30 am Jess

           Black dogs can be brindle, you just can’t see it. Same with masks. The sister of one of my Salukis and her sire are featured on the Saluki page of the site linked above; both of them are black and both have black masks, you just can’t see them. My bitch from that litter is also black, I have not had her tested, I’d like whether she’s got a mask to be a surprise.

           
           
           • on December 2, 2009 at 4:39 am retrieverman

             In boxers, you can get a sealed brindle that looks like a black: http://pics.hoobly.com/full/4A9DJDPRNWMY312WRI.jpg

             The boxer that sired the litter with my golden was a brindle, but all the puppies were black. They might have been brindle.

             Or my golden didn’t have the gene for brindle (K/K)

             
             
             • on December 2, 2009 at 4:45 am Jess

               In a brindle to not brindle breeding, the pups have a fifty percent chance of being brindle. Doesn’t always work out like that, though.

               
               
               • on December 2, 2009 at 4:48 am retrieverman

                 In boxers, a brindle a homozygous brindle to homozygous fawn mating will produce 100 percent heterozygous brindles: http://www.newcastleboxers.com/inheritance.shtml

                 
                 
               • on December 2, 2009 at 4:57 am retrieverman

                 In boxers, you have two base colors. Fawn is recessive to brindle.

                 However, you also have white markings.

                 A dog with a lot of white markings on it is a flashy. It is actually a dog with the genes for solid coloration and for the masking factor white.

                 Breeding flashy to flashy statistically produces puppies that have two alleles for the masking coloration. Those are your white boxers.

                 White is a verboten coloration in boxers, and it is associated with deafness. However, the show ring wants flashy marked boxers, so whites will pop up in litters. http://www.newcastleboxers.com/inheritance.shtml

                 
                 
           • on December 2, 2009 at 4:41 am retrieverman

             Another sealed brindle: http://www.freedoglistings.com/pics/puppies-breeders-rescue/012179_JC5_Shelby-is-a-sealed-brindle-BLACK.jpg

             
             
3. on December 2, 2009 at 4:44 am retrieverman

   This dog is said to be a coydog (a coyote/golden cross).

   However, it looks like a brindle golden retriever: http://www.apetsblog.com/pets-photo-album/liberty-coydog-picture-photo.htm

   
   
   • on December 2, 2009 at 4:49 am Jess

     That’s quite pretty, actually. I don’t think you’d get a coat like that from a coyote, though. Goldens are genetically long coated, aren’t they?

     
     
     • on December 2, 2009 at 5:00 am retrieverman

       Yes.

       This is said to be a coydog from an Irish setter: http://www.westlafayette.in.gov/egov/gallery/1251241529806756.jpg

       I have no idea if this one is true either.

       
       
   • on December 2, 2009 at 9:25 pm Bridget

     Oh, that is very pretty!!
     If it helps any – brindle is a pattern (as a roan is in pointers), not a colour.

     
     
     • on December 2, 2009 at 9:35 pm retrieverman

       Yes. it is a pattern. In English, it is called brindling.

       Neapolitan mastiffs can be blue brindle, which is very pretty. (I think so anyway).

       
       
4. on December 2, 2009 at 9:47 pm Jess

   I don’t think either of those is real. I think you’d get a coyote type coat on an f1 cross, not a soft long coat like both of those dogs. I believe the animals in this thread are coydogs before I’d believe either of those two:

   http://www.spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=81108

   Some of our local coyotes are red phase, they don’t have the black on the back. Very pretty.

   
   
5. on December 3, 2009 at 1:41 am FrogDogz

   Willis states that French Bulldogs are ee, as well – and yet brindle is one of our most common marking patterns.

   French Bulldogs are FRUSTRATING for color enthusiasts, in that all colors and patterns are accceptable, other than —

   Mouse (now believed to be the color currently referred to as ‘blue’)
   Liver (now referred to as ‘chocolate’)
   Black and Tan
   Black (meaning without a TRACE of brindling)

   There are very colors/patterns not seen in Frenchies, which can make guessing what will show up in a litter frustrating. I can present you with some conundrums, if you’d like – made esp. puzzling by Willis’ ee assertion.

   
   
   • on December 3, 2009 at 1:44 am retrieverman

     I’d like to see those.

     
     
6. on December 3, 2009 at 1:43 am FrogDogz

   Sorry, that should read ‘very few’ colors/patterns.

   I’ve never seen merles or dapples, but honestly? That’s about it.

   
   
7. on December 3, 2009 at 2:54 am Bridget

   Many darker Goldens go blond around the eyes by ageing. Finally, they’ll have the “Mickey Mouse mask”. Isn’t it a houndish feature? Never seen a lab getting that kind of mask.

   
   
   • on December 3, 2009 at 3:00 am retrieverman

     I’ve seen some yellow Labs with it.

     In the darkest dogs, they turn white around the face.

     Here’s an old lab: http://mylt.ltcdn.com/files/images/GG-332×300-labadoptstigercubs.jpg

     I haven’t seen an old “white” goden yet, and I’m curious as to what color their muzzles turn.

     
     
   • on December 3, 2009 at 4:02 am flattie-n-Labbie

     I’ve seen it in blacks and yellows; can’t imagine it doesn’t happen in chocolates.

     
     
     • on December 3, 2009 at 8:13 pm bridget

       Heh, it’d be funny to see a choco with the Mickey – mask.

       
       
       • on December 3, 2009 at 8:33 pm retrieverman

         This is the closest I can find: http://knittymuggins.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/britt051808a.jpg

         
         
8. on December 3, 2009 at 1:39 pm HTTrainer

   Found it: Golden Retriever News, v44, n5, Sept/Oct 2007 p46.
   “Why A, B and e Spell ‘Gold’, Looking at Coat Color and Genetics in the Golden Retriever” by Anney Doucette.
   This article may answer most of the questions about colors in Goldens and Golden crosses.

   
   
   • on December 3, 2009 at 1:49 pm retrieverman

     Does it talk about K and kbr?

     I know those other genes. Plus, in goldens, there is another factor that has to be looked at: http://www.google.com/url?q=http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/98/5/544&ei=-L8XS67zHZS9lAeG3ejeAg&sa=X&oi=spellmeleon_result&resnum=1&ct=result&ved=0CAcQhgIwAA&usg=AFQjCNHY2S401cIoXYSqOo5Qroc7l6DX8g

     I think the white shepherds, samoyeds, and poodles actually started out as normal red dogs that had their pigment bread out of them. I have seen apricot poodles, golden colored GSD’s (with no black masks and no sable), and cream colored Samoyeds (which are called biscuit): http://www.suntripsamoyeds.com/bud.html

     Westies are most likely derived from very pale red (e/e) Cairn terriers, which I think are also e/e: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QRIwFJ6k6HQ/RyzvxTjyewI/AAAAAAAAAbE/E4qJKiyBu7o/s400/cairn%2Bterrier.jpg

     That biscuit Samoyed is much darker than many cream goldens I have seen!

     
     
     • on December 3, 2009 at 4:20 pm HTTrainer

       It lists these loci: A (agouti), B (brown dilute), C (chinchilla), D (blue dilute), E (extension), G (greying), M (merling), S (spotting series) & T (ticking).
       As noted this article was written in 2007; any conclusive research on the K locus may not have been included in the original research data used for this article.

       
       
   • on December 3, 2009 at 1:52 pm retrieverman

     Here’s a really good light red cairn terrier: http://www.hainaultforest.co.uk/CairnTerrier1.JPG

     
     

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