I’ve been looking to a breed that is currently being offered on various websites. It is called Native American Indian Dog, and every description of them I have found has been contradictory. (Check out Dog Breed Info for photographs.)
Whatever these dogs are, they are wolfish animals that vary greatly in size. Some are as small as 55 pounds, while other exceed 100 pounds in weight.
Here is what they possibly could be:
- Dogs from the Reservations: Either real ones or re-creations of the supposed type. Indigenous Americans were actually excellent dog breeders. People often assume that all of these dogs looked like wolves, for the Indians were not “civilized” enough to selectively breed dogs. This assumption has a degree of cultural supremacy and more than just a little taint of racism. However, there are historical accounts of Native American dogs on the Great Plains having very friendly relations with wolves, including occasional interbreeding. Of course, if you read that particular source, the original Native American dogs of the Great Plains became extinct as European dogs and European-derived dogs arrived there.
- Regular wolf hybrids or derivatives of wolfish shepherds. These dogs look like long-haired Saarloos Wolfhonds, and although some are spotted, they do have a wolfish look to them. They could also be derived from wolfish shepherds like the Tamaskan and the Alsatian Shepalute. These dogs very much remind me of the latter, which are mixture of GSD, Malamute, Anatolian shepherd, and Great Pyrenees. (The AS is supposed to be a domesticated re-creation of the dire wolf, if you can imagine anything so fanciful!)
- Chinook and Malamute crosses: There are Chinook dogs with erect ears, and there are Malamutes of this type. Those could definitely be a possiblity. I see some of the Malamute’s markings in some of these dogs, just they lack the same tail carriage.
- All of these and more. It is likely that these dogs descend from multiple sources. It’s likely that the breeders of these dogs are looking for a phenotype, not a genotype. One thing I noticed is that these dogs always have a trait for very webbed feet. Where could you get that? I’ve never heard of any dogs with very webbed feet that were not wolf-like, except for this one and this one and this one. (Well, there are a bunch of them!)
I should note here that there is some suggestion that retrievers descend in part from the so-called “canoe dogs “of the native peoples of New England, Quebec, and the Maritimes. (Here’s a photo, incorrectly called a “retrieving wolf.”)
However, I don’t think this necessarily means that the dogs of the Great Plains were in any way related to the water loving dogs of the East Coast. However, the influx of Newfoundlands on the plains could have introduced this trait into the “rez dogs.”
The truth is I really don’t know what these dogs are. I don’t think one can call them the absolute same breed or landrace that existed with Native Americans. Those dogs existed entirely within a nomadic bison-hunting economy. The regular influx of wolf genes into these dogs definitely affected their appearance, but keep mind that the friendly, docile wolves of those days have long since disappeared. Human persecution has selected wolves to be unbelievably paranoid animals, and breeding them with dogs isn’t really an intelligent move.
Because of these issues, I don’t think we can call these Native American Indian Dogs anything but recreations. They may include “rez dog” genes. They may even be part wolf, but the dogs of that time and place no longer exist. The likely died of canine diseases that European dogs brought them, and then the gene pools of those surviving dogs were entirely swamped with the genes of Newfoundlands, St. Bernarnds, collies, sight hounds, and pointers.
Re-creating breeds is an old obsession of the dog fancy. They have been doing for years. The modern Irish wolfhound is probably entirely a re-creation from the original wolf-killing hound– a mixture of deerhounds, Great Danes, and mastiffs.
I think the closest analogy to the Native American Indian dog is the Eurasier.
This breed isn’t that common in the US, but in German-speaking countries, it is a relatively common family pet. It was bred by Julius Wipfel, who read Konrad Lorenz’s (very flawed) book, Man Meets Dog. Through that book, Wipfel got inspired to recreate the ancient spitz of Eurasia. He crossed a breed the Germans call a Wolfspitz (and we English speakers call a Keeshond) with a Chow Chow, and he founded a line of Wolf-Chows. When Lorenz heard about the program, he suggested that they add some Samoyed.
And from this dog the Eurasian spitz was “re-created.”
However, I don’t think anyone would suggest that these are the same dogs that lived throughout Eurasia during the Stone Age!
And I think that’s what’s going on with the Native American Indian dog. It is a recreation of a breed that appears in historical texts and in the prehistoric records. However, I don’t think that just because we have bred dogs to resemble these animal that we have the exact same creature.
The dogs of the indigenous peoples were a diverse lot, and those wolfish dogs that lived near them existed within a time and place with a distinct ecology and a distinct culture.
Those contexts no longer exist. The processes that made these dogs what they once were no longer affect the gene pool.
These dogs are merely ghosts of what once was and never will be again.
Of course, I could be wrong about all of this, and there actually are dogs that are definitely pure Native American dogs.
But I’m skeptical.
However, it’s not as fanciful as re-creating the dire wolf!
If you spend much time looking into these dogs you will find a great deal of infighting amongst breeders. There used to be woman on the web who would sell you your very own breeding stock so you could be part of her ‘licensed breeding program’ for a mere ten thousand dollars.
re-creations? more like scams, at least in some cases.
I saw a wolfdog at a dogpark (yeah, I know) and commented to the owner about it. “It’s not a wolfdog, it’s a “native american dog”. This dog (mixed with Malamute, I guess) could not have looked or moved more like more wolfdoggish if it had a neon label attached to it. Wolfdogs are illegal in the state I was in.
I watched that dog for about a year at intervals, grow from a puppy up through adolescence with its behavior becoming less and less puppy-dogish and more and more adult wolf-ish. A disaster waiting to happen
They are scams if you believe these things are actually “rez” dogs. I wasn’t going to use such a strong word, but I agree with you.
Now, there are breeds that have wolf in them that are safe– the Czechoslovakian wolfdog and the Saarloos wolfhond.
Then you have Tamaskans, which have no wolf in them, but look like they do.
How do we craft some legislation that protects these dogs but also more strongly regulates wolfdog ownership?
I’ve yet to come up with a real solution to this problem.
I once saw a painting of what was believed to be the “native american indian dog” riding along side a horse ridden by a native american indian. it was beautiful, sort of like a husky/shepherd mix without confirmation issues.
I can see why people try to re-create.
The beauty of a dog who naturally belongs in the hills and along the rivers of America… and yet everything we tough in the modern age gets destroyed.
Was not this dog the original ‘mutt’? A beauty at that.. but can it really be categorized?
In recent years this breed has been gaining popularity in my area. The controversy around the makeup of this dog is becoming something of a sad, familiar story.
The Native American Indian dogs I’ve seen are gorgeous, but easily mistaken for a wolf at first glance. Actually the dogs with red, or spots, seem less likely to be taken as a wolf. (On that note, a Chinook component would be reasonable- I wish I had a picture of a very red one nearby. Then again, this particular dog came from a breeder in CA whereas the rest of the mostly grey/black local dogs came from MI or WI.)
I’ve seen a couple handfuls at dog parks. None have been model dog park material: either very skittish or very boisterous. Though I don’t mean boisterous like many high drive dogs, rather it’s like a switch is flipped and the dog goes from calm to wild-eyed, panting, overall anxious and on the move. I don’t mean to vilify them, none have been aggressive or exhibited anything very far from normal dog behavior. I’m just saying they don’t strike me as obedience champs in the making. Or dog park-types?
It could be very possible that the dogs I’ve seen are just mismatched to unqualified owners. Maybe not socialized enough in some cases?
The behavior issues wouldn’t be so much of a problem if it were not for the dog’s appearance.
Cliques form over whether one associates with ‘the wolf dogs’ or not. Police have been called on a couple of occasions, or so I’m told, when these dogs have gotten out of their yards and have been mistaken for wolves (which we have in Wisconsin but almost never this far south.)
What is not helping the situation is that the owners don’t know how to describe these dogs. One might consider thoroughly brushing up on his or her breed if people are going to be calling it a wolf. And if you own one of these dogs, chances are someone will tell you it looks like a wolf. A few owners spout out “Native American Indian Dog” then follow up with saying, “like a Malamute cross,” or “Husky x Malamute.” (But the tail always threw me, too, I was never content with this answer.)
What will help the situation, for owners and for people who cry wolf, are more comprehensive studies of the breed — I rejoice at this post.
I wish everyone could see these dogs, though I’m not sure everyone should get one. But my guess is they’d be a fine dog for a serious, serious owner.
It the question of early education and demands a stabile lifestyle from the other family (“pack”) too, to get a nice-behaving “dog park dog”. So it’s not the breed really. All shepard -type of dogs tend to have much drive and get stressed, as U’ve seen.
Also I wonder, do u tend to call the police (in Wisconsin) every time u see a wolf (or think it is) ? Why ? If people have cattle out in the fields, I suppose they also have proper fenches and a pair of good LGDs .
Native American Indian Dogs are a re creation which is stated on the breeders sites. The foundation stock were dogs that were obtained from Native American breeders, but as anyone knows, the original stock died long ago. There are some that are bad mouthing the breed and claiming that they are wolf dogs. Those claims are made out of ignorance. Most people would not know what a wolf dog really looked like, even if they were bit in the butt by one.. The NAID is a combination of Husky, Malamute, German Shepherd and Chinook. The founder of this breed has the bloodlines that made up this breed documented here:
http://www.majesticview1.com/NAIDs/Past%20Sires%20&%20Dams.htm
There will always be people that will complain about any breed that is non-AKC. Most forget that all AKC dogs started out just as the NAID has, They are all mixed breed dogs, AKA mutts. The NAID is fortunate that it is a relatively healthy breed unlike most AKC dogs.
People love to complain about anything that is above and beyond the norm. If you have a problem with the breed, then please educate your self before making your self sound ignorant by posting false info.
This dog right here has definite wolf ancestry: http://www.andreaundpeter.de/wahli/Homepage/gesamtus.html#developement
Here’s a dog that was bred to look like a wolf: http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9452/tamaskandog5jz0.jpg
You cannot tell these dogs from normal wolf hybrids.
In fact, you really can only tell the difference between dogs and wolves from Europe, Northern Asia, and Northern North America. More southerly wolves, including those that live in southern Europe, are very hard to tell from hybrids.
Secondly, some people are lying that their wolf hybrids are of this breed. In fact, the numbers of this breed tell me that they are coming from more than one source, and that many, many of them are actually wolf hybrids that are being called this breed. Remember, wolfdogs are illegal in many places, so what do you do? You call them Native American Indian Dogs.
And if something bad happens, that breeder will get the blame.
I’m not being ignorant here. I am being skeptical.
I don’t put false info on here.
Read:
http://www.kentucky.com/2009/07/23/870861/babys-injuries-spark-debate-over.html
It doesn’t sound to me like this dog came from that source!
BTW, in the link U give it a canine behavior specialist says “- – – The Smiths made a “classic mistake, out of ignorance, and now they’re suffering badly for it – – – Dogs like Dakota don’t recognize infants as people – – ”
Heck ! It’s monkeyshit to say a dog doesn’t reckognize a 3-years old kid as human ! It’s likely that the dog doesn’t BEHAVE CAREFULLY enough – or APPRECIATE that much !
Yet another designer dog like the Cockapoo, and God knows what else. Totally bogus, and as anything dog that has been out bred to a wolf dangerous.
Except for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saarlooswolfhond
And this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovakian_Wolfdog
As far as I know there is only one remaining dog which might, and I say might, have both physical, and cultural evidence of having a relationship with Native Americans that is the Carolina Dog. Fortunately they where recognized by Dr. Lehr I. Brisbin who is an Ecologist in the 1980’s before they finally disappeared most of the remaining examples where captured and are now being bred by Dr. Brisbin and members of the Carolina Dog Association. There is something of a controversy, big surprise, about the Carolina Dog. Some biologists have accused Dr. Lehr of inventing a native breed out of an isolated feral dog population. Whatever is the facts on the Carolina Dog these dogs have been known in the area for a very long time by those that live there so at the very least they are not a designer breed but breed type which occurred naturally.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_Dog
http://www.carolinadogs.org/
Yes. I know what you’re talking about.
There are other “native breeds” (really landraces that have at least some European dog in them). The Xoloitzcuintli and the other hairless dogs and the Navajo dogs. None of these look like what people think of as Native American dogs– the assumption is they must look like wolves.
It’s not true.
It’s highly unlikely that Navajo dogs are “original” given that the sheep and goat herds derive from Spanish flocks brought in as early as Cortez. Since Cortez and others ALSO brought dogs to manage the flocks, it’s more than likely that dogs & livestock went together.
Short of DNA tests of bones (or if we are so lucky, mummified or otherwise better preserved) of animals clearly predating Columbus, there’s just no way to verify that a “native American dog” is any such thing. For that matter, you’d have to verify that no Viking dog added to the mix in areas like Newfoundland.
http://www.native-languages.org/dogs.htm
The dogs that had the best chance of surviving the longest were the sled dogs in the Arctic areas. but again, influx of other dogs during the gold rush and now as sport sled dogs, makes keeping these lines difficult. I believe that only the Canadian Eskimo Dog is (Qimmiq or Inuit dog) remains as a true “native” dog.
There’s no particular good reason why someone couldn’t recreate a “native” dog, but to do so with the view that the animal “had” to be Dingo like or “wolflike” and with wolf/dingo characteristics that would make it less functional in a working role or as a pet seems to be counterproductive.
Peggy Richter.
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/d/derr-dog.html
Any dog can be a livestock guardian dog-even Chesapeake Bay retrievers. However, those that are selectively bred for it do it a bit better.
I disagree that these dogs are primarily derived from Spanish livestock guardian dogs, because 1. they are little and 2. Navajo country was a long, long distance from the core of the Spanish Empire.
The aboriginal people of the Andes had livestock guardian dogs called suncca that guarded their alpacas. They looked like shaggy sheepdogs, and they were there when the Spanish showed up.
The Navajo dogs weren’t any kind of stock guardians before the Spanish colonization. They were probably camp followers.
http://books.google.com/books?id=9_EDbatFH9MC&lpg=PA174&ots=AOaKMI1diL&dq=mark%20derr%20coppinger%20livestock%20guardian%20dogs&pg=PA168#v=onepage&q&f=false
Read to page 175.
The dogs used by the Navajo, Zuni, and Hopi tribes to herd sheep are derived from the herding dogs the Basque sheep herders brought with them from Northern Spain starting around 1540 along with a variety of the four horned Jacob’s sheep. The four horned Navajo-Churro sheep was derived from this ancient European breed. These herding dogs out crossed with the dogs breeds these people had before but the basic herding behavior was maintained. I come from ranching stock here in Wyoming and from boyhood have known and talked with both Basque, and Navajo Sheep herders who are hired to seasonally manage sheep flocks driven into the high country for summer grazing. The traditional stories they told me are fascinating.
My problem with that is how similar these dogs are to prehistoric dogs from the region, i.e., the Basket-maker’s dog.
I don’t deny that they might have European blood in them, but the original dogs of that region were very similar to them before the Europeans arrived.
Mark Derr very carefully researched this.
I don’t think they are entirely Basque dogs.
I think this possibility must be considered, because there is an inherent assumption that all dogs of the Americas before Columbus were dingo or wolf- types. This is false.
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/d/derr-dog.html
If both Stanley Olsen and Mark Derr noticed this similarity, I think we can say that they were onto something.
If that were true, the dogs would all be of the mastiff type.
They aren’t.
In fact, if you read Derr’s analysis and interviews with the Navajo, the big livestock guardian dogs from Europe are the last thing they want.
If you’re talking about the Pyrenean shepherd dogs, well, those are active herding dogs, not livestock guardians.
I don’t live on any Rez, but we did drive across some of them many years ago, and again a few years ago.
Basically (out west) they looked like Australian Shepherd dogs – how the breed looked before it became a registered ‘purebred’. Their coats were more like that of a husky mix than today’s show Aussie.
If you were gong to try to recreate the LOOK of the breed, I’d say half Australian Shepherd, one quarter Husky, and one quarter Whippet. No wolf.
There are those who believe that the show type ‘Australian’ Shepherd is really a Rez dog from tribes that herd sheep, with a little cross to something with silkier hair.
There doesn’t seem to be any ‘Austalian’ Shepherd dogs in Australia. They do seem to have loads of blue heelers.
BTW, I understand from one Native American woman with a herd of sheep, her dogs were expected to catch rabbits while they worked sheep.
What would happen if, at a herding trial, a sheep dog took off, chased, killed, and started to eat a rabbit?
I think you are assuming that all the dogs used by the Spanish were “mastiff” type. I don’t think that is so. In looking at your book reference, page 172, I note that 44 out of 230 apparently had “issues” such as being too active, etc. As noted in the book, yes, “bonding” helps. I think it is perhaps a mistake to assume that the Navajo are right in asserting that “big white dogs disturb the flock”. No doubt big white dogs disturb THEIR flocks. UC Davis did a study some time ago verifying that sheep can recognize up to 200 different individuals and certainly sheep know the kinds of dog they are accustomed to. Nonetheless, a friend of mine raised purebred Navaho churro sheep and jacob sheep and had standard European guardian dogs to protect them — obviously HER flock was familiar with such dogs whereas the Navajo flocks aren’t. Secondly, a BIG white dog simply eats too much to thrive on poor reservation grazing lands. The smallest dog that works is preferrable in almost every herding scenario I’ve seen, and there’s no reason why the Navajo would differ from that. Resemblance to the “basketmaker” dog is simply convergance — form following function and the environmental constraints. If you kill any dog that doesn’t work, obviously the ones the researcher sees will be those that did.
My point is that I dont believe the Navajo dogs are “native” dogs. It is possible (although unlikely) that there may be some “native blood” in the current dogs, but they certainly are NOT “preserved originals” any more than the sheep or goats are. Both derive from European sources. as for size, it doesn’t take too many generations to change size if the current information regarding the genes for size is correct– Pomeranians were once about the size of a Samoyed.
As for use of dogs & Llamas, etc, yes, I quite concur that there WERE original native dogs. I just don’t happen to buy that those presented as “native” dogs really are, with the exception of the Canadian Inuit dogs. It’s possible that in some remote areas of S. America that some dogs with a significant % of original blood exist, but I’d like to see the DNA verification of it.
Peggy Richter
I don’t think those dogs are what we Europeans assume they are.
I think they could very well be descended from a particular European landrace.
I doubt that anyone would have brought those mastiff type guardian dogs to guard sheep in the Americas. Mastiff type dogs in Latin America do exist, but they aren’t white shepherds.
I don’t think those dogs are Basque or Pyrenean shepherds.
I think they represent (at least partially) an indigenous landrace.
The problem with most of this is everyone assumes that Native Americans had dogs only like dingoes or wolves.
This simply is not the case.
Please read the research that Mark Derr put into those dogs.
Unfortunately, there are wolf hybrid breeders that are calling and even registering their wolf hybrids as Native American Indian Dogs. Because the dogs are so similar looking, it is hard to tell the difference. The authorized breeders of the NAID know what their dogs are and not all of the breeders are in illegal states. Point in fact about the Kentucky person who’s baby was taken out of it’s crib. They say that Dakota was a NAID and that the breeder claimed that she was 90% wolf. The breeders name was never disclosed, and because the wolf claim is false, no breeder is going to make that claim.
It is a known fact that there is a breeder of supposed NAID’s in Texas, Colorado and I believe the Tahoe area who is not on the authorized breeders list. These breeders have stated that they are breeding wolf dogs and registering them with some bogus registries as NAID’s. NAID’s are a GSD, Malamute, Husky and Chinook cross as claimed. Here is a link directly to the founders site:
http://www.majesticview1.com/NAIDs/Past%20Sires%20&%20Dams.htm
Hey, did you know that the original bloodlines of the GSD included crossing with pure woves? I guess that makes a GSD a wolf dog too!
Yes. There is wolf in the GSD, but not very much.
That’s why Saarloos crossed his GSD’s with wolves. He used too many wolves in his line, and his dogs stopped guarding!
People who have wolf dogs make that claim all the time.
I think what has happened is the wolf hybrid breeders have stolen the NAID name to keep their animals legal.
Most of the “Cur” breeds supposedly have some Native American dog ancestry–I suppose it is possible(but it would be very diluted, as in modern GSDs). The Carolina dog is almost certainly a fairly modern dingo-like mongrel that developed naturally without much human selection, as feral dog populations usually do left to their own devices–Mr. Brisbin DOES admit this is very likely, but possibly there might be some Native American ancestry too–like in the Cur breeds(again, if so, very diluted…). There were lots of very “doggy” breeds developed by the Native Americans that were not wolf-like at all(contrary to popular romantic opinions)–but most became extinct, alas(see William Pferd the 3rd’s book, “Dogs Of The American Indians”). The Canadian Inuit Dog of the North(the ORIGINAL Eskimo dog), and the Chihuahua of Mexico are probably our purest forms of original Native dogs(along with the Xoloitzcuintlis)!! Quite a difference between those two! Although there certainly are legitimete breeders trying to recreate a fascimile of a “Native American Dog”, there are plenty of hucksters that will sell their illegitemete husky crosses for big bucks claiming the same, and as said, people disguising their wolf hybrids with that term–wolf dogs are also ‘incognito” as “malamute crosses” or “husky crosses”, which, in truth, they often are! Lots of people selling “high percent” wolf crosses for big bucks(the higher the percent wolf, the more money they can usually be sold for) that are little or no wolf at all!!!! Ironic when the big bad wolf dog who mauls somebody or eats the baby turns out to be just a mutt with zero wolf in its ancestry! Hmmmm, makes you think….. Believe me, I’ve been involved with all this B. S. for decades! Just goes to show–let the buyer beware(and do some research, for gosh sakes–do you REALLY want a dog that’s part wolf? REALLY? Do you know what that requires in responsibility????), and there’s a sucker born every minute……..
Do you know what I call the Canadian Inuit dog to avoid confusion about it and the German spitz derived thing from the Us?
I call them Qimmiq, for that’s what the Inuit call them.
I agree with retrieverman – NAIDs are mongrels and wolf hybrids. What do you do when you live in a state that outlaws or regulates wolf hybrids? You miraculously change them into NAIDs. And then you can get even more money for their pups.
I closely followed the story of Dakota the NAID (read: wolfdog) who grabbed and ran off with the baby in Kentucky. It was a more or less local story here. The stupid people had several other “NAIDs” – four altogether. At least one of them was Dakota’s littermate. The stupid father actually tried to get the authorities to release the “dog” back to him! All the news stories at the time went on and on about that. And about how rare and expensive the dogs were. The father had his face and photos of his McMansion plastered all over the news for a few weeks.
Now, I love my dogs. But I don’t care how expensive it was or how much status appeal it had; if any dog of mine tried to actually eat one of my babies, that dog would be put down. Especially if it was a wolf hybrid. Something changes in a dog that has successfully preyed on a person. And here that stupid man wanted to bring the dog back into the home with the newborn baby that she had already tried to eat! I don’t care what the stupid father said, that dog preyed on that baby. She ran off into the woods with the baby in her mouth, and yes, there were multiple puncture wounds, collapsed lungs, and she fractured the baby’s skull with her bite. She took the baby to the place where she usually hid to chew her bones. And it was just luck, that she had not finished him off once she started chewing on him.
If that had been someone’s Pit Bull the cops would have shot it on the spot. But NOOOO. It was a NATIVE AMERICAN INDIAN DOG, very RARE and EXPENSIVE and so they just confiscated her and quarantined her. Thank goodness the stupid father did not win his case to get the dog back. They had to relinquish her to a wolf sanctuary (they finally admitted that she was “part wolf”, but they still refused to refer to her as a wolf hybrid, which she most obviously was). I’m just glad that she was not adopted-out to a private home, to possibly injure another child.
This was not an attack, in the sense of a dog just reacting to something with a bite, or attacking out of aggression. This incident was predation. And that is my main objection to wolf hybrids as private pets. They become more and more predatory as they grow older, and children are particularly at risk. I know of which I speak, because I have had wolf hybrids. I never will again, but those experiences opened my eyes.
“The authorized breeders of the NAID know what their dogs are and not all of the breeders are in illegal states.”
“Authorized breeders” of NAIDs? Authorized by whom? I doubt the Native American peoples belonged to kennel clubs.
kittenz–some people are trying to “recreate” a semblance of Native American Dog that are made up of various domestic dog breeds–no wolf at all. If they want to do that, and do it responsibly, it should be their business, and it is not their fault if other dishonest or ignorant people use the term to make their husky crosses sound more interesting, or people trying to legitimize their wolf hybrids. I do have to wonder about your wolf hybrid experience(I have also had wolf dogs, and all my animals were great and they fit my circumstances very well, and the main thing I learned from them was how inaccurate lumping them all in one narrow, negative category is…)–when you make a sweeping statement that “they become more and more predatory as they become older” and how you would never have them again. Why? Was your circumstances wrong for them? What happened with your animals? If it didn’t work out for you, is that justified to assume they won’t for anyone in any circumstance? Don’t domestic dogs with zero recent wolf genetics kill kids all the time?(yes, they do)–and should no one therefore have them for “pets”? You see, it really isn’t black and white when you look at the facts. ALL dogs are predatory–there are MANY dogs I wouldn’t trust around a baby unattended–should all those kinds of dogs be eliminated too? I think people who get predatory animals(and all dogs ARE predatory with the proper stimuli–some more than others, certainly) and do not take this into account are being foolish–precautions should ALWAYS be taken. I think denying predatory animals some sort of outlet for that behaviour is part of the problem; totally suppressed instincts cause frustrations that get expressed in tragic ways. I always allowed my wolf dogs(and other domestic dogs with strong hunting instincts) to hunt certain game–they learned some things were allowed, others(including people) were off limits, and they were very stable, trustworthy animals ESPECIALLY with children, whom they were well socialized with from an early age, and tended to treat as they would puppies(tolerant and gentle). One of the self-fulfilling prophecies that has come about with wolf dogs “NEVER” being trustable around children(the current politically correct view) is that NO attempt is made to socialize them with such, so you are actually INCREASING the odds such a tradgedy will happen. I think anyone who does not closely monitor ANY animal/child interactions is asking for trouble(usually for the poor wretched animal, I might add! Children have predatory instincts too!). If wolf dogs were so deadly to kids, we should have greater statistics than we do now to bear this out, with thousands of the animals out there(for decades). Nor do I think historical Native Americans tolerated such animals running loose in their villages along with their kids for centuries, if this was so prevalent a characteristic. I hate to nit pick, but I will INSIST on this subject, for accuracy and truth about the animals, for fairness regarding many many individual canines with recent wolf genetics that live their lives out without ever causing such tradgedy–this is very much like the Pit Bull witch hunt……
Kittenz:
Just some info to clear things up about the NAID. The NAID is a created breed with the original foundation stock obtained by dogs purchased from a Native American breeder. German Shepherd, Chinook, Husky and Malamute blood was added. So, Authentic NAID’s are the dogs that were created by the founder, Majestic View Kennels. There are several breeders of wolf hybrids that are now calling their dogs NAID to help sell their pups, even some are registering their wolf hybrids as NAID’s. These breeders are in Colorado, Texas and Alaska.
It has never been determined if Dakota was bred by one of the authorized breeders. If you read the story again, you will find that Dakota did not attack the baby, nor was the intent to hurt him. Even the owners of Dakota stated this. It is of the opinion of many people that the owner claimed that Dakota was a 90% wolf to draw attention away from he and his wife’s neglect.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it is important that the facts at least be considered. There are many wolf looking breeds out there, Tamaskan’s, Huskies, Malamutes among others. It is very easy to pick one of them out and say “Oh, that is a wolf hybrid”. You must not forget that all dogs stemmed from wolf blood. And more recently some AKC dogs also have wolf blood in their foundation stock. Are you going to call a AKC German Shepherd a wolf dog? Probably not, but if you research the foundation stock, you will find that there was a pure wolf or two that helped develop the breed.
Oh, forgot to ad. The reason that there are authorized breeders of the NAID’s, is to protect the breed and to stop the wolf hybrid breeders from marketing their pups as something that they are not. ANY ethical breeder is going to be very protective of their breed.
As one of two NAID owners to reply here (Hi Shirley), I feel compelled to ask you all to focus on one word: recreation. True NAIDs, bred as Shirley has pointed out by a close-knit group of breeders with common goals, are recreations of dogs reportedly owned by Native tribes, made up of foundation stock from a couple of tribes plus huskies, malamutes, chinooks, and shepherds. But they are all dog. If there is any wolf ancestry in them, it’s so many generations removed as to be nonexistent. And it was not put there by today’s breeders but originated from the mixed genes of the foundation stock.
These are not predators (unless you count peanut butter as prey) or baby killers or bad dogs to take to the dog park, for heaven’s sake.
Yes, there are lots of bogus breeders out there peddling wolf mixes as NAIDs, which is a travesty for these animals. Few people are equipped to handle wolf dogs which is why the rescues are always busy saving them. But please don’t confuse what’s happening with these unfortunate animals with true NAIDs.
I am very sorry to tell u but u are very wrong. The actual breed of real NAID dogs is not extinct. And they are bred just as they use to be. Also ur conclusion that wolves are no longer how they use to be is extremely wrong. In the history of man to this day there is not one confirmed account in written history of a wolf being aggressive toward humans. The only interactions that are recorded between wolves and man which are rare to start with all end in the wolves aid to humans. Its false statements and write ups like this that ruins peoples thoughts and views on wolves. Please have ur facts straight before posting on the net. Or don’t post at all. Cause all this is is being part of the problem.
Um, you are quite wrong about wolves.
1. https://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/the-wolves-of-paris/
2. https://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/the-wolf-of-ansbach/
3. Wolves killing children in India: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/childsnatching-wolves-terrorise-rural-india-1269627.html
4. A recent fatality: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/13/nation/la-na-wolf-attack13-2010mar13
Audubon wrote of some wolves killing some slaves that were wandering around the woods in Kentucky.
It’s a myth that wolves never attack people. They RARELY attack people. RARELY is not NEVER. When you say NEVER, you hurt your credibility the instant the thing you claim never to happen actually does. You’ve proved to me that you’re an unusually stupid person for trying to pull this crap on me, especially when it was revealed today that the dingo did eat the baby.
Also, the dogs of the Native North Americans are extinct. What’s more, we have good historical accounts of what they were like, and virtually none of them were large and wolf-like. There were mid-sized wolfy dogs. But these were destroyed by the diseases European dogs introduced. European dogs were more useful and easily trained, so the Native Americans used them. Lots of them had Newfoundlands. With the exception of the Carolina dog, no purported Native American dogs have been found to have Pre-Columbian ancestry. The exception might be the hairless dogs, which have a Pre-Columbian mutation that causes the hairlessness. However, the bulk of their ancestry is European. The hairless trait is semi-dominant, and it is easily “grafted” onto dog stocks with just a bit of outcrossing. Malamutes and other North sled dogs do have Pre-Columbian ancestry, too, but these dogs were not found throughout the continent.
People are spreading lots of misinformation about Native American dogs. I’m sorry but they are gone. That’s what science says.
You can deny it all you want to, but they are gone.
BTW, you don’t tell me what to write, and if you’d like to continue down this road, you can kiss my ass.
If you think you’re so smart, you might want to work on your spelling and grammar before talking down to me.
This is so stupid dispute going on again and again. It only reflects how little people know about the natural life now-a-days. It also looks a bit stupid to lay out proofs (net links) to proove the fact . Actually, it’s like saying a dog can kill a man. Hello news .
A wolf is a canis -animal, ie dog -animal. All dogs are, of course, part of the same canis -genus . A typical tendency for animals belonging to that genus called Canis is to stalk, chase and attack another animal or even any object as a car . This is as natural behavior to them as reasoning is to a man. That behavior pattern doesn’t serve only as a tool for food purchase, but also a self-defense and social tool for gaining a better hierarchic status in a pack .
The genus canis has killed numerous of humans and will do .
But in some reason we seem to prefer to being killed by a car.
About 1,200 000 people are killed in a car accidents every year wordwide and we just think that’s natural (lol) .
“It also looks a bit stupid to lay out proofs (net links) to prove the fact.”
How else are people on the internet supposed to reference sources?
The genes don’t lie. I am extremely curious about the genetics of dogs of claimed NA origin. I raised them for 20 years and believed I had an Indian Dog when I got my first one. I got her off an enrolled Colville/Sioux, but I knew her breeder from years before, and I knew the parents and the grandparents as there was an informal coalition of some kind where people knew who had which dogs. I mean to write about it on its own blog and put up all the photos. We often had a hard time from wolf hybridders and people who wanted zoo wolf in their dogs. I only bred two litters because they were hard to sell as everyone wanted part wolves during the 70’s and 80’s. They thought the pups looked wolfy, but wanted provable wolf. I came to call them “Indian Shepherds” but I just made up the name to pitch the dogs, which I did believe were of Indian breeding. Those okanongan dogs (sp?) are pure dog but ,very wolflike in appearance. I sure would like to see their genetic description, too.
In any case, I don’t see how different genetically dogs with European genes are; they all came from the same place- the Middle East. So how can you prove a re-creation of the original dogwolves is not extremely similar to the actual original? Maybe markers differ, but the genes themselves are very similar.
IN my current blog, I went out on a limb to call the little local landrace border dogs, aka Deer Chihuahuas, Techichis. This wasn’t to claim they are provable Native American dogs,specifically, but that they are the ancestors of the modern AKC Chihuahua, because they are the dogs the Chihuahua people came out to El Paso and Tucson to buy to breed the AKC Chi from during the 1880’s to the 1930’s. Since I am from Tucson, I am aware that many German miners came to the Southwest and Northern Mexico as miners from the 1850’s to 1890’s, no doubt bringing both dachshund blood and probably MinPin too. I am planning to write a grant to genetically test modern examples of the deer Chis- which although always called ‘Chihuahuas’- in general, have not one drop of AKC ancestry. Properly, I should call them Techichi Types, no matter what the markers say, the markers are not the actual genes.
Native American dogs, like those of East Asia, would be quite genetically distinct from European dogs. There would be evidence of a lot more Chinese wolf ancestry in these dogs.
I’ve not seen any studies on currently living indigenous dogs or purported indigenous dogs that show any of this ancestry.
Xolos have been found to be almost entirely European dog in their genetic make-up.
The Boykos are looking at Latin American village dogs, but I’ve not seen the results of their genetic studies. My guess is they are very few if any dogs that have an ancestry other than European dogs.
I am not disagreeing with you. I am just curious to see it in the genes. Some genes did survive besides the Hh, I would think.
That mutation in xolos and Peruvian hairless dogs did survive. But it’s a semidominant, and it could be introduced to virtually any breed or strain of dogs with minimal outcrossing.
I know that. That is why there is such a huge variation in hairless types in books like “Enigma of the Xoloitzquintle”. You can graft that hairless gene onto anything! That is also why having all those types thrown together just because they are hairless might keep some heterogeneity now that they are AKC.
What intrigues me about American Indian dogs is the set of their ears. The extinct Tahltan, the maritime retriever, the techichi, all have low set ears that stick out to the sides. Am I seeing things? Because if this is real, it’s not just an occasional mutation, as it is so widespread. Where does it come from?. I’ve seen nothing like it from Europe or Asia. Or Africa. Unless the flop-eared dogs are actually like this. (I’m not in a position to lift up the ears of unfamiliar dogs to find out.) Any ideas?
HI Kathy
I think you are right about that ear set, which is very commonly found among xolos – and the deer chihuahuas I like to call ‘Techichis’- and Mexican street dogs of all stripes. I am so glad the Mars lab is doing the “breed” testing for a minimum of $60.00. I want to apply for some money so I can go collect samples and get them tested- and to have their genes on record, so that when more is known, perhaps my little guys will have some interesting info to offer.
To all:
I have a donation button on my site if anyone has some cash to toss my way. For each $60 bucks I get, I will have one “Deer” Chihuahua tested for known breed content. I will provide the work and transport involved in finding the dogs to test, getting the samples to the Mars lab -as well as my thoughts about what such testing might show. The actual dog I get tested will be credited to the donor -as desired.
Thanks for your reply. Confirmation feels good.
That’s a cool new avatar you have there.
As soon as some spare cash appears I’ll send you some. Meanwhile, have you tried UC at Davis? They have a dog origins section and vague rumors suggest there might be someone there who will at least listen to ordinary folks with ideas for research.
I really do not know much about other peoples attempts to breed native American style dogs. Knowing what I know today, I would not presume to do such a thing- I would just buy a Tamaskan. They are beautiful, very wolfy looking and haven’t a drop of recent wolf blood. I think they probably do look like the original dogwolves. I think it is great that whoever started with them is doing well, so far- though the various breeders are very proprietary and their is a lot of infighting with the one group defaming another.
Those Markel dogs seem to me to be the result of someone else who is very like Ida Garrett, an ego-tripper extreme. Why else parade her other superficial accomplishments and awards in her DOG resume? She is a seeker of approval from authority, under her skin. Though some Techichi, like the Hare Indian dogs, did have that piebalding- and so did the basketmaker mummy dog that looks like the current Navajo shepherd dogs- I haven’t seen that look in any of the large dogs in old dog art books, which I have collected for 40 years, ie Bodmer and Catlin and a couple others. I think the Tamaskans have the formula down compared to Markel.
Of course, I am all about phenotypes until we have the genetics decoded.
Sorry to run on. I love Derr’s description of the Navajo sheepdogs. I grew up on Dinetah-the Navajo Rez- in the 1950’s, my dad was a tribal lawyer. I had a horse and a lot of mobility. The other kids with horses and I knew all the flocks in the neighborhood for around 10 miles. It was still pretty much the old days. The grownups did not speak much English and they lived in isolated hogans with their sheep and dogs. I don’t recall people leaving their sheep out overnight with only the dogs. Often a small child would go out with the sheep and the dogs, which were mostly around 30 pounds, and bring them home at night. Predation was not a problem during the day.
Nobody was hung up on leaving the dogs to ‘bond’ with the sheep or they would be no good. The dogs accompanied the sheep and a person and just did what dogs do, chase after us when we came by, or after any fleeing rabbit or lizard or warning about snakes- it was very bad mojo to step on a snake- very expensive to heal the spiritual damage, even if it was not a predatory snake.
I always thought they just extended the eyes and ears of the human and barked at anything amiss. That is actually a lot for a dog to do and the dogs are probably the reason people felt OK about sending preschool children out there with the sheep. The sheep? They followed the kids and dogs around without much cuing.
@Kathy
I haven’t heard of UC Davis dog stuff. I will contact them. There is someone at the UofAZ, or used to be, but I missed his name- I have to write it down! next time I see it.
no modern population of dogs in the US are related to any dogs in the archeological record. none. Eskimo dogs are fairly true but have been reinvigorated with Greenlander Eskimo dogs. Sheep dogs are introduced around the same time sheep were – 500 years ago. NAID do have wolf in them and the day that wolf hybrids became illegal in Karen Markel’s state is the day she invented the NAID. – she used to claim they were real indian dogs until myself and other indian people confronted her on it. Now she does not. Antoher fraud is AID – or the American indian village dog or any of the other cock and bulls stories that are out here.
http://www.sleddogcentral.com/features/little_wolf/precolumbian.htm
That’s pretty much what I thought.
There is a bit of debate about whether to consider Inuit dogs from Canada as a distinct breed from those in Greenland.
It seems to me that the definitely belong to the same landrace.
R-man, I know that is your opinion and therefore I respect it. In this case I wonder if the single study Stephanie cites as back up for her statement that ‘no modern population of dogs in the US is related to any dogs in the archeological record’ is pretty sweeping and seems to have no other studies to back it up, yet. The study dates from 2002 and considers only mtDNA and draws on merely 37 native specimens. Among comparison dogs, it only samples modern purebreds.
While I have no doubt there is a unique American clade, I really can’t find where it is stated that was the only clade present in the time period and in all archeological samples. It was perhaps the only clade identified, that was unique to the New World?
There are many more archeological findings in the last 10 years. Genetic studies no longer have to rely solely on mtDNA with its known limitations. I think we need a new sampling that includes new finds. I also think it should be an actual DNA sample, not just mtDNA, due to the limitations of drawing conclusions based on mtDNA alone.
Unlike this study, which assumed the Xoloitzquintle to be a unique Mexican breed, I find the Xolo is not a breed at all, but one single dominant gene that has persisted to this day. It is not a complex of genes. It is one gene. What this tells me is that although full genetic sequences matching old ones may be missing today, single genes have made it on through. So far, tracking single unique genes is not being done- if any, except the restricted hair gene, are even identifiable.
All I am saying, is the final word is not in on the full genetic makeup of ancient American types of dog.
The old phenotypes persist today, even if the genotypes have not been fully studied and compared, yet. Maybe the reason the old phenotypes exist is because they are easy to achieve and maintain, even if modern purebreds are the sole source of genetic material. And, I am not at all convinced that all today’s pricked eared, drop tailed mutts are derived from Euro purebred breeds that got mixed up into mutts.
The wolf hybrid was banned in Mi in 2001. The founding breeder (Karen Markel) bred wolf hybrids until that point. In 2002, the same breeder founded the NAID breed in Mi. I have had both hybrids and have rescued two of Karen’s naids. Some of her animals are absolutely low content to mid content wolf hybrids. Others are backyard bred northern breed mutts. Some vets in mi have refused to see my animals, and have advised me to rehome them in wolfdog legal states.
I had known about this breed through my mushing circle as “laundered pedigree wolfdogs.”