The Württemberg pointer was a German gun dog, a derivative of the old Spanish pointer, which still exists today.
These heavier pointers were the first of the index dogs.
The Spanish pointer is most likely the oldest variety.
In fact, although the term “spaniel” is thought to reflect the Spanish origin of those dogs, it is more likely that the pointers were first founded in Spain.
Spaniels most likely derive from red and white hunting dogs of the Gallic Celts.
This dog was replaced by the faster moving Kurzhaar (German short-haired pointer).
The Kurzhaar was also derived from the Spanish pointer.
However, it is a lighter pointer that has evolved into an HPR.
The Kurzhaar is the best-known of the German HPR’s, and the Württemberg pointer no longer exists.
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It also resembles the Italian pointer very much.
The Bracco Italiano and the Spinone Italiano are two heavy pointers that are either derived from the Old Spanish pointer or are very close relatives.
Both Italianos are clearly hpr – breeds.
And the spinone resembles the German Wirehaired Pointer to a some amount.
Did u know that the continental pointers will get extra points if they cry while hunting? I’ve heard a big bracco crying like a bloodhound while on a track.
The English index – dogs would be called off if they did that.
Braccos and Spinoni are related.
German wirehaired pointers are actually a much more recent creation that is derived from the pudelpointer and several other griffon type HPRs.
Would you say that this breed might show some relationship between Hounds and Bird dogs?
Using the DAW system of neoteny stages (see http://publicdomainkennelclub.blogspot.com) would you call it a cusp breed between the scent hounds and the bird dogs?
I think I have heard that somewhere, bird dogs and hounds are grouped together as gundogs. Do you think scent hounds are more like bird dogs or more like the greyhound-like breeds?
Pointers most likely derived from heavy scenthounds, like the bloodhound.
I’m skeptical of the neoteny and motor pattern-dependency literature.
If that is all true, you’d never have an HPR that can both point birds and catch and bay wild boar.
And I never would have had a hard driving golden retriever with a soft mouth that lived to retrieve but could also catch kill and eat rabbits.
As I understand it, the theory of neoteny states that an animal stops developing at some point, or the length of time spent in varous stages is changed.
Like in the axolotl (you can wikipedia it, and read the part on neoteny), an animal could stop developing at some stage – if this were true in wolves, then bird dogs and herding dogs would already have passed through the boar hunting and hound stages.
It would be like a frog NOT stopping at a tadpole stage, but moving on to the stage where it still has gills, but has grown legs.
This could be done through the turning off of gene action, rather than a mutation in DNA – so it would not be an all or nothing effect (epigenesis).
What action do you think caused dogs to have so many different forms and such a vast difference in instinctive behavior?
You are using Coppinger’s theory on dog neoteny.
The problem is that it assumes that dogs are developmentally delayed and that’s what stops them from going into full predatory mode.
Well, we could never have HPR’s. HPR’s point, which would be a delayed stalking pattern. But they also retrieve, which would be a delayed consume and kill motor pattern. They also kill prey.
If Coppinger is right, then these animals simply couldn’t exist, but there are many German and Austrian hunters who use this.
There are retrievers that point. I know of one whippet that does.
The reason why dogs change shape so easily and form different breeds is they have a lot of tandem-repeats in their junk DNA, which allows them to shape shift very quickly through the generations. Just a little selective breed or natural selection can totally change a dog or wolf or any wild dog.
This is more important than neoteny.
After reading your post, I have spent some time trying to find some common ground between Coppinger’s theory and that of the DAW theory, but I can NOT find how these different things could be related.
Perhaps that is because I have not read any of Coppinger’s books? Can you briefly explain his theory or provide a link?
If I understand his theory correctly from what I have found on the internet, his idea is that dogs are a sort of ‘de-evolution’ of the wolf; a neotenic form of the wolf; I agree with that.
But that deals with wolves becoming dogs, not how different types of dogs came about.
I once had a teacher who, when asked why the megafauna evolved into smaller forms, said that they didn’t – that there was a brief era of history where the mammal grew giant: tigers were sabor-tooths, elephants were mammoths, people were austrailapithicus robustus.
And weren’t wolves smaller both before and after the dire wolf?
Genetics and environment are only part of the whole being – there is also the factor of which genes are turned off and which genes are turned on – you might have written on the epigenic pattern in calico cats?
It’s like how the yellow color gene is turned on in some of the cat’s cells, then the black gene is turned on in other cells.
I like the grouping of DAW in that it provides a mere 21 gene pool, leaving breeds as varieties within those gene pools, and it all fits into a nice natural pattern.
Retrievers, setters, and spaniels are probably more closely related to herding dogs.
The Gallic Celts are believed to have red and white spaniels that were derived from their red and white farm dogs.