On Wednesday, researchers at the University of Nebraska released a study on how much damage feral cat colonies do to birds and small mammals. They placed a monetary value on the damages at $17 billion.
Yes. The authors point out that habitat destruction is far worse than feral cat predation, but cats have been implicated in the extinction of 33 species of bird worldwide.
And no, the authors are not in favor of TNR.
They come out strongly against TNR, if you read their recommendations, the authors point out that no scientific study has proven that TNR causes cat populations to drop. There are only marginal reductions, and no colony has disappeared. I should note that no one has made one disappear by shooting them, which is one of the author’s recommendations, but I can tell you that if people were shooting stray cats, those people who own cats wouldn’t be letting them roam at large, perhaps breeding in the wild and contributing to the feral cat mess.
You won’t have a feral cat mess if everyone who owns cats takes caring for them seriously and understands that their could be consequences for letting them roam at large. The unfortunate thing about cats is they have very little economic value. They are seen as disposable animals, which one can turn loose if one gets tired of it. That in itself is a tragedy, but it is even more of disaster when one realizes that cats can live fairly well without human care and can easily reproduce multiple times of the year without any assistance from man.
I have not seen a single study that shows the effectiveness of TNR, except that it provides some marginal reductions in cat colonies. And nearly ever cat in the colony must be liberated of its gonads before those reductions begin to appear. Spays and neuters cost money, as does vaccination. That is why the authors point out how ineffective this strategy is in terms of cost.
Unlike the much ballyhooed Best Friends study, which was easily debunked for its creative accounting practices, this one actually puts real world monetary value on the amount of damage feral cats cause and does the same with the different control strategies.
The authors do suggest coming up with nonlethal ways of controlling cats, such as modifying habitat and using guard dogs.
But they do not advocate for TNR.
As someone who is very sympathetic to the No-Kill Movement, I am deeply troubled by the feral cat aspect. I believe healthy companion animals should not be destroyed and every effort should be made to find homes for them.
Feral cats are not companion animals. They are an invasive species, and although they are not the primary cause of extinctions and population declines of birds and small mammals, they are still a major cause, one that would shouldn’t be ignoring. I honestly don’t know why they got mixed up in the No-Kill Movement. This is a wildlife management issue. It has very little to do with finding homes for pets that can be adopted. In fact, it is a major distraction from the issues surrounding No-Kill.
TNR just makes people feel good. It’s the only reason why it keeps coming up. It’s not fair to the wildlife, and it’s not fair to the cats, who very easily fall prey to predators, are killed in traffic, or freeze to death in the harsh winters. Never mind that cats themselves transmit diseases to each other, some of which cause horrific deaths that are far worse than any death a cat would experience from a shotgun blast.
TNR is simply a bad idea. It is not based upon science. It is based upon emotions, and if the No-Kill Movement wants to continue on, it needs to separate itself from such things. Feral cats should be euthanized or shot. A dog or cat that can find a home should not.
What is so wrong with making that distinction?
Yes. I can be speciest here, too. Domestic dogs don’t cause as much damage to wildlife– although I’d be lying if I said they caused none. But dogs are much smarter than cats, and one can easily teach a dog to leave prey species alone. Further, dogs have been in North America since the end of the Pleistocene. Our species have evolved with canid predation. They have not evolved with wildcat predation, although gray foxes are fairly close to wildcats in terms of their behavior and target prey species. Gray foxes, however, never have existed continent-wide and have never existed at such high numbers as feral cats do.
Dogs also normally don’t go feral, and they normally are required by law to be on leash or under the control of their owners. Such laws are rare, if not nonexistent, for cats. Most dogs in this country are owned. Feral and stray dogs don’t make up anywhere near the proportion of our dog population that feral cats do with the cat population. Dogs simply are not going to have the ecological impact that cats have had — at least on this continent.
The feral cat problems in this country are wildlife management issues. They are not pet issues. They are only pet issues so long as cat owners are irresponsible and don’t understand the potential that cats can have in an ecosystem. Responsible cat owners never let their animals roam at large.
I have nothing against cat ownership. I do have issues with irresponsible cat ownership, and I also issues with “feel-good” measures being used instead of sound wildlife management principles. Sometimes invasive species must be killed to protect native ones, even if that invasive species happens to belong to a species that people love.
We humans are the ultimate invasive species, but unlike cats, we have big brains that allow us to come up with sound management principles. We may not always follow them, but sometimes, we have to do things that aren’t so nice. Sometimes creatures must die so that others can live.
oh you’re just asking for trouble now!
I am because I saw the drive-by attack on Pet Connection, so I had–had– to look the study up.
It is damning!
You do hate cats, don’t you?
I would never own one.
I don’t hate them, but I hate what feral cats do to the ecosystem.
Yes you may be too intelligent to hate, but I can still see it!
You don’t hate cats, but you like rattlesnakes better?
Can I borrow that line to use when I don’t want to come right out and say how I feel about someone?
“I wont say that I hate him, but I like rattlesnake better”.
the PetConnection people are mindless TNR supporters (as well as mindless “no kill means whatever I want it to mean even if we kill, oh excuse me when we do it, it’s called euthanasia” acololytes. I don’t even have to know what they wrote to tell you what they wrote. EVERY study that documents the damage feral cats do… including the ones published in peer-reviewed scientific journal… is sneered at and denied. While the BF bs is lauded and help up as proof.
I bet most of the birds cats kill out there are common thrusts.
If one bird is valued 170 approx. dollars, they kill many.
I wonder how to covergate the living beings into dollars.
17 billions is nothing. You cannot eat it _LOL_
It’s a sum Obama removed from the budjet – a sum to make a new high speed buss line
http://www.theonion.com/video/obama-replaces-costly-highspeed-rail-plan-with-hig,18473/
I’m not a fundamentalist on this. People can keep cats to control pets on their own property.
And cats can go outside on their own.
But large colonies of cats are not ecologically insignificant.
Oh, I hope I don’t get thrown off a blog – but I am going to disagree.
(I once got tossed off a blog, not for something said on that blog, but for something said on a different person’s blog.
I went back and scanned old posts on the blog which I got tossed from, and couldn’t find that that blogger ever mentioned the subject he tossed me off his blog for. This is why it is good for the outspoken to use a different name for each blog.)
I like cats. I have had pet cats and they can be great pets. I have read that more American homes have a pet cat than a pet dog, and many of them have more than one cat.
Cats fit into the modern lifestyle better than dogs. Not all families have a stay at home mom to be with a dog, and many families don’t have a grandparent or two, to stay home and keep the dog quiet.
Dogs want exercise, dogs want attention – all things that a big family can offer a pet dog. A person alone, a couple, a small family – sometimes this isn’t a big enough pack for a dog to feel comfortable. (Choose your dog breed wisely.)
Cats are happy with singles, couples, small families. If left alone, they nap. The cat’s best feature as a pet: CATS DON’T BARK, BARK, BARK!
Yeah, I know, the subject appears to be TNR – but few people who like cats and have one, complain about feral cats, why is that?
Could it be that many (not all) people who are against TNR of cats really just hate cats, and instead of coming right out and saying “I hate cats!” they beat around the bush, talking against TNR?
Cats do kill birds. But how Rusty Schakleford is it for a guy who hunts birds, to hate cats because they hunt birds?
And anyone with a bird dog, and who loves a dog who hunts birds, just can’t honestly say he hates cats because they hunt birds. Why doesn’t he hate dogs that hunt birds?
Perhaps this is like the guy mentioned earlier who hunted deer, so he killed wolves that hunted deer – so that there would be more deer for him to shoot?
(Remember about watching the green light in her eyes dieing? Cats often have green eyes too.)
Sometimes you can read about coyotes killing lambs. But then you can also read that each 5 rabbits eat as much range vegatation as 1 sheep. It takes more mice to eat as much as a sheep, but there are more mice, and the little chompers add up.
Since coyotes mostly eat rodents and rabbits, they are really like wild range protection animals. The save the grassland by reducing the number of rabbits and rodents.
All factors added in, coyotes help sheep ranchers, not hurt them. The trick is to manage their population numbers, taking care to selectively cull those with a taste for mutton.
Same with cats. Cats do kill some birds, but mostly cats are mouse hunters. Cats are more of a specialist than a coyote. Cats are geared to hunt mice.
Crinkle celophane (the clear stiff plastic wrap that is around hard candy), and a cat will go after it. A ball of celophane is a delight for a cat. Why?
Well, what does crinkling celophane sound like? Not a bird. It sounds like leaves being gently rustled. It sounds like a mouse under fallen leaves.
Healthy birds can fly usually fly away from cats. Okay, not in some parts of the world – like islands with tame birds. And cats can raid birds nest, although many birds raise a nest full of babies right on a tree branch, right in an area full of loose pet cats. Cats like to hunt mice – baby birds are not much sport. Cats are sportsmen.
A cat which has ever been hungry is more apt to eat baby birds, but I have seen parent birds dive bomb cats and chase them away. Mocking birds with a nest are hell on cats!
Now lets get back to rodent control. My aunt lived near a nice area which developed a rat problem. The city was called, and called, and called, as more and more people found rats in their homes and garages.
The city investigated to find out why this one neighborhood had a rat problem, when other neighborhoods did not. They found that this neighborhood lacked loose cats. The cats there were all inside cats, mostly spayed and neutered. The city told the people to let there cats outside sometimes.
But the people there would not. (Maybe some jerk in their neighborhood killed loose cats?). The problem went on and on. The city spent more money on rat control for that one area than the rest of the neighborhoods, and they weren’t happy about it.
Finally, months passed, and no matter how many rats the city killed, the rats just had more babies. Then the fruiting season came, and the hungry rats starting eating the unripe and ripening friut.
The city said that it could not keep trying to control rat populations, unless the people in that neighborhood all got together and cut down all the green fruit to be hauled away, because it was feeding the rats, and the rats wouldn’t eat poison, or go into traps, when they could eat friut instead.
The people wanted the fruit trees to have fruit that year (the neighborhood had been built on an old orchard, and many of the original trees were left in the large yards). But in the end, ALL the friut had to be picked green, bagged, and hauled to the garbage dump. The rats chewed the tree bark – big areas of the skin off the tree branches.
The city finally said that some families would have to get grown fixed cats, and let them run loose, but care for them. Some people volunteered. That was the last that I heard of it.
TNR puts rodent hunters back into the envirnment. Cities make garbage, garbage makes rodents, rodents multiple and migrate into homes and farmlands.
TNR is a cheap form of rodent control.
Okay, someone looked up how much cats cost, did anyone look up how much loose cats save the government?
What if the city/county/state had to pay for rodent control?
What of disease in birds? What was that bird disease that people get, where we were being told to report sick birds, a few years back?
Without loose cats what choices would the city have?
Either pay someone to kill only the sick birds Ha ha ha – a person can’t do that. But a cat just rushes the flock, while it is pecking in the grass – the birds that don’t fly away are more likely to be the very sick ones.
Or the government could just say: Robins (the bird with the red breast) are often carring this disease, so kill all the robins.
Like wolves killing the sick caribou before the disease spreads to the rest of the herds, cats cull the wild bird flocks. Those birds who can fly away, live. Those birds who can compete for safe nesting sites, and who can defend their nest from cats, those birds are naturally ‘chosen’ to produce the next generation.
Cats save us from sick birds. Cats save flocks of birds by culling the few sick birds.
TNR is good for some birds. TNR saves the government money on rodent control. Small predators like cats, save the vegatation, and therefore are good for the environment.
WTF?!?!
Hmmm. How do I explain to my kids that the cat that just killed an entire nest of bluejay chicks right in front of us was just culling out the weak. Or how the Chipmunks running back and forth on our wooded paths was just pounced on and eaten right in front of us was just removing the weak and sickly from the population.
Nah, I’d rather shoot it dead and show my kid how to place it on the owner’s stoop right next to a bag containing parts of the little creatures it just killed.
And what would you use to control mice and rats?
Foxes. Never shoot a fox.
Ferrets. Ferret turds are enough to keep the vermin away.
Far better than any cat.
Okay, I agree: never shoot a fox – unless it’s rabid or hurt badly and dying, or very sick or mangy.
And I like ferrets. But I like cats too.
Ferrets and foxes can eat birds. But they are good, so why aren’t cats good to you too?
Foxes are native.
Cats are not.
Ferrets stay in cages or in the house and are only out when ratting, which is like terrier work for a ferret.
Where I grew up “wild birds” usually meant pigeons and non-native sparrows.
No real point in keeping cats from killing them, unless you like bird poop.
But very few, except those birds injured by cars, were killed by cats.
Have I red some time somewhere, how many animals are killed by the cars yearly… Where is that count now?
It is an enormous sum.
Driving cars is NOT that important as you think. You could easily make it half. You would not die or starve. But maybe have some more muscles.
You are right about the cars.
America will not give up cars.
Roads are not everywhere, and in some places, there are crossings under the road for the animals to cross.
Cats are everywhere.
You are getting too crazy now.
CATS ARE EVERYWHERE!?!
I have seen cats out in the middle of a forest nearly two miles from the nearest barn. That’s pretty much everywhere.
Cats are only found in the US where there are people. 2 miles is not far for a pet to roam from its home. Dogs and cats can take a 2 mile hike out into the woods.
Do you realize how big America is?
Not all areas have public transport. Not all areas are urban.
Oh, it is big.
But it is not like Africa or Siberia.
big or bigger towns are everywhere and roads cross everywhere. It is so populated, I have heard, that many animals like a wolf can’t live there anymore.
Where I grew up was an hour drive from the nearest city of any size. I took ten steps, and I was in what was basically wilderness.
Most people in America are not native, and they kill more birds than what cats kill.
Why is it that you feel that it is okay for non-native people to kill birds, but not cats?
Why do you think it is fine for non-native bird-dogs to kill birds, but not okay for a non-native cat to kill birds?
Why pick on the cats?
This post on cats has caused me to think about an assumption which I had never considered before.
Perhaps the idea of trying to turn back the clock on the environment is a weird idea – like the “pure blooded” inbred dog idea of eugenics.
Perhaps forest and parks need to be managed, but not preserved.
This could be very good. If the government would move away from the fake idea that ecosystems here can be kept ‘pure’, they could use the woods to help keep species from other places from dieing out.
Okay, not loose tigers in the woods, but why not African antelope species which are dieing out? Rare small jungle cats?
Wild animals who could live free in our woods, and give it a true diversity in species.
And if they overbred, the extras could be hunted. Tourist could go scouting for different species with cameras.
Rare zebra could replace some of the wild burros. Birds that can live and reproduce around cats could fing a home here, and add to the thrill of bird watching.
And studying any hybrids would be cool.
Australia is different. They have a rare treasure chest of unique animals. Our deer aren’t rare and it would be had to hunt their numbers down to where other hooved animals could be released.
Retrieverman, didn’t you mention the thrill of seeing your first elk, your first pronghorn? Why should it stop there?
I was once in Texas and saw some type of deer and her fawn which I had never seen. It was like spotting the Lock Ness Monster, until somebody told me that on the other side of the woods was a wild animal farm, and that it had probably jumped out. Why can’t other people have this thrill too?
Let Steve Irwin rest in peace in Australia, and think about creating something new and grand, instead of sticking with whatever happens to be here now.
Where would the world be if there were no changes?
We would still be riding horses, and the streets would be ankle deep in horse poop!
Your posts make my head bleed. They make no sense what so ever. You obviously have no idea what you’re talking about and are only speaking from the heart. You’re letting your feelings get in the way of logical thinking. Please be quiet and read a book on the subject, or google it.
I love coyotes.
They save songbirds by eating cats.
http://www.michaelsoule.com/resource_files/124/124_resource_file1.pdf
Hellohello… You can’t bring a fox to a cattle or into a stable or to a grain store / mill.
And foxes smell even worse than cats!
You get a ferret. That’s what farmers here always did.
Until rat poison became cheap.
LOL
The ferret is not used in here in the farms. No such a tradition. It is an import thing and used against city-rabbits.
The problem is when people abandon they cats and I bet it happens a lot in the USA.
Not here much.
Cats live oin farms, they don’t roam much in the forest, in the fields in maximum.
Are polecats native to Finland?
If they are, then ferrets are, too.
Yes they are native, but not being for a hundred of years at least. I think all the best, old field and crop farmers have trusted the cat for many many hundred of years.
In the Middle Age towns and castles of Europe, the cat was essential.
The USA is a “new” land, so the cat is new there too.
I understand.
Well, ferrets were domesticated for the same reason cats were.
A hundred years is very little time in the evolutionary time scale.
I wonder how all those Native Americans (Cahokia culture, Aztecs, etc) were able to farm without cats….
Do you know any farmers – even just one – who use ferrets for rodent control instead of cats?
My great grandparents did. You bought ferrets at livestock auctions for that purpose.
Now, they just use poison baits. Cats are extraneous.
And that poison is better than cats?
Wad idiots ,sorry! Don’t they know that they kids’ kids’ kids may be born without balls, since many poisons work as estrogenes in an organ.
Bridget – Some Americans care about the chemicals in our environment. But many more American do whatever is cheapest, or whatever works best, or whatever their friends do.
In the 1960s there was a Green Movement by the hippies to care about the environment. They were successful in getting the government to care about pure water, pure air, clean food.
But much time has passed. The population here has grown (mostly from illegal immigration) and the needs of the people who live here are great.
To grow more food, and to get things done quickly and cheaply, chemicals are used.
It might not be healthy, but it is cheaper.
Some stores sell “organic” food, which is suppose to have been raised without chemicals, but a person must be a smart shopper to not get tricked, and organic foods cost more.
Here’s the deal:
I care about all of those things.
I care about pollution.
But invasive species are like pollution.
I’m sure you don’t defend cane toads with this much vigor, right?
How about foxes, coyotes, bobcats, snakes , eagles, hawks, owls, crows, ferrets etc,etc.
Cats controlling rodents? That’s your answer to argue for allowing feral cats? There are plenty of alternative predators that are indigenous to natural habitats that would do a fine job of it if they weren’t competing with feral cats or hunted to endangered levels because they don’t happen to look like Morris. Are you serious?
Feral cats are a wonderful soup for Aboriginal tribes. So perhaps they would make a good food source. Hunt them, and process the meat into little pussyburgers. Then use the fur to make coats for winter wear and help save the fur seal, mink, wolf and foxes used now.
In urban areas… Hmmm. Did you ever hear of a mouse or rat trap? Or how about picking up a phone and calling an exterminator. Perhaps even buy a HOUSE CAT or a small terrier.
As for the free roaming kitties I see…. A well placed bowl of radiator fluid works nice too. But, the BAM of a shotgun killing it may actually be more rewarding with less chance of collateral damages.
Oh, you would do that?
Well done and otherwise cool :(
It seems that the cat population has exploded in the USA.
I have never heard or red about it till here.
In Northern Europe, too, some people hate cats for that. But there is no real problem, since all cats live in farms, not by the coast or in the forests where the rare, land-nesting species live too.
So we let out cats go free and eat mice in our stables.
I have had many cats, they killed the type of a common, ugly thrust that eats all the cherries, currants and strawberrys and shits all over. So we were just happy for the cat.
In Europe, the wildcat (the same species as the domestic cat) is native. It’s rare in some parts of Europe. In Scotland, they are rarer than tigers in India.
Our birds didn’t evolve with 10’s of millions of cats. Bobcats aren’t bird predators. The ones that live here eat a lot of deer.
BTW, I love hermit thrushes, even if they eat all the holly berries off holiday decorations…
Retrieverman, you love birds that eat our friut, but you hate cats that kill these birds? Did your mommy make you eat your friut when you were a boy? You don’t have to eat friut anymore if you don’t want to.
Now think about that for a minute. I’m not asking you to put on Mr. Spock ears, but can you please use SOME logic?
Unless you are a real bird watcher, and can quickly answer all sorts of birder questions, I can’t make out your reasoning.
Farmers in the US don’t use ferrets. They use poison or cats. Most ferrets here come from ferret farms and are sold already altered and de-scented. They are expensive.
AND FERRETS LOVE TO EAT BIRDS.
Yeh, I forgot that. They are even meaner, better climbers.
wow, HDP, anthropomorphize much? Cats are “sportsman”? it is to laugh.
Cats are predators. They hunt. They hunt and kill whatever they can. Slow birds/fast birds/small rodents/large rodents/healthy/unhealthy: if the cat can catch it, it will. They hunt whether or not they are hungry, and that’s the unnatural part of their predatory behavior. You have a fantastical image of cats.
As for “vermin control” justifying feral cats… 2 different questions entirely. Many of the rodents we most fear are themselves non-notive invaders (norway rat, anyone?) One Pied Piper example provides no information to counter the problem of feral cats’ impact on native bird and small mammal populations.
“Accusing” people who would like to find a solution to this impact of “hating cats” is a low form of debate. When did you stop beating your spouse?
Do you like cats? Then why complain about cats who get rid of rodents, and a few birds?
Unless you are against all hunters? If you are against all hunters, then you are – well, at least consistent. But how can you be against cats who hunt, but not dogs who hunt, or people who hunt?
I admit that I’m not much of a bird person. I have had a few pet birds, but just not my kind of pet. I like the occasional wild bird – but not a flock of them living nearby.
I have had pet rodents, liked them better than pet birds, but I’m not planning on another pet rodent, and I don’t like feral rodents inviting themselves inside, not into my place or any place I might eat, or any other place. And I’m happy with cats taking out mice and rats.
Most people who say they hate cats have some reason for how they feel. Maybe because their dog killed cats when they were a kid, and they couldn’t love both the dog and the cat it killed.
Or they themselves shot a feral cat, or hurt a pet cat, and now years later, they can’t say “I did wrong”. (Unlike the man who killed the wolf and realised that he had done wrong).
They hate cats so that they can say “Cats are bad” instead of admitting to themselves that they have been doing wrong, or that the dog they love kills other people’s pets.
There are reasons for not liking cats, but people who hate all cats, often have had some emotional experience which has not healed.
People often fail to confront their negative emotional experiences, this is very common, few people really do it well. It might actually be a better sign, when a person can say “I hate cats. I don’t know why, I just hate cats.”
But people often make up excuses, not to lie to other people, but to lie to themselves. To aviod digging into dusty memories to figure out why they hate cats.
It isn’t normal to hate cats.
It’s not a few birds. It’s 480 million a year nationwide!
And how many rats and mice?
Consider the birds as payment to cats, in exchange for them getting rid of the mice and rats.
And how many of those birds were sick? At least too sick or injured to escape a cat?
Most of those birds were probably fledglings. These bird species evolved with a small amount of raccoon, opossum, and gray fox predation.
Cats exist at much higher densities than these animals do. And because they are typically well-fed, they hunt for fun.
How many of them do you want to survive?
Are we talking about saving little birds to hear them sing, or so boys can have targets for their BB guns?
I want enough birds to survive, so that we can have them for generations. Every state in the union is having bird population problems.
http://stateofthebirds.audubon.org/cbid/
You may not be able to tell from this blog, but I’m kind of in favor of people shooting game birds…
No, I did notice, that’s why I don’t understand how you could hate cats for killing birds. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander too.
How can you say that people hunting birds is good, but cats hunting them is bad?
Sounds to me like Rusty Shackleford – like “Don’t let the cats kill the birds, I want to shoot the birds myself”.
Please shut up. What is wrong with you?
Well, Emily, I would laugh at it if I only could.
But seing how the man “hunts”, makes me sad some days.
The man takes out and rips off everything he just can.
He doesn’t care but himself. He doesn’t change. He teaches his kids to do the same – haunt and hunt everything that is more or less worthy, to catch it, to robb it, to break it and rape it – not paying any charge for the Nature itself.
Same as the cat?
No, he is abslotutely worse.
Can anyone count that sum?
Hi Bridget,
Yes, I don’t understand how men who are hunters, can hate cats because cats hunt.
People ruin the forests with saws and bulldozers. People turn the forests into more houses. People graze cattle where the grass and trees once lived.
Cats? Cats are a small drop in the ocean of things which hurt nature.
Actually they are in the top three of things that cause problems with nature.
Where is that top-list?
Wad is on the top?
Habitat destruction.
The number one is the man.
We all know it that it a slow down slide from now on.
The 1950s was the time of the great positiveness. The American life style came to Europe and slowly took over.
But it has been 60 years since we started to live like in the adds – to hunt commercial things.
Our life style has changed the nature and so also our lives concretily.
For example, you can’t eat Finnish sea-fish every day. The experts say eating the fish more may cause health problems in years to come since the fish includes pollutions.
Cat is part of man’s changing of the environment, not separate from it.
It is part of the bad things we’ve done.
It is a minor, a nothing really.
I don’t think your cats will kill any bird into the extiction. It is more your poisons and GM -farming and stereotyping the environment by farming only one species of crop (specializing on one).
Could you do something about them maybe?
Well all of those things, except GM foods, are bad. GM foods are an unfortunate necessity– unless we’re going to kill off a bunch of people as proper Malthusians.
Cats have been implicated in the extinction of 33 species of bird worldwide.
Check this one out: http://terranature.org/wren.htm
HDP, yes it is funny, but sad.
The man has turned the eco-system almost upside down and THEN he starts to complain about wolves / cats / waddever creatures but himself.
Look at the maps now and a 60 years ago.
It is awful dramatic. The forests gone, the fields over-pastured, the grey citys take over in the map spreding farther.
The seas were full of fish, no more are they.
The new oil-stations are being built. Good bye, sea birds, fly to the moon.
The North-Pole ice has smelt some half.
But emty Coca Cola bottles are sailing in the North-Sea. Hurrah and death for the cats!
HDP, yes it is funny, but sad.
The man has turned the eco-system almost upside down and THEN he starts to complain about wolves / cats / waddever creatures but himself.
Look at the maps now and a 60 years ago.
It is awful dramatic. The forests gone, the fields over-pastured, the grey citys take over in the map spreding farther.
The seas were full of fish, no more are they.
The new oil-stations are being built. Good bye, sea birds, fly to the moon.
The North-Pole ice has smelt some half.
But empty Coca Cola bottles are sailing in the North-Sea. Hurrah and death for the cats!
Cats are introduced to this continent. They are part of the screwy things our species has done to the environment. They are not separate from it.
The wolf stuff is different. Wolves are native carnivores that were essential in managing ungulates on this continent for hundreds of thousands of years before the Mesopotamian wildcat arrived on this shore.
This is an intresting item.
The same Mesopotanian cat arrived also here but since then, hadn’t cause any environmental catastrophe as there in the USa seems to be the case.
Finland has one thing much of the US doesn’t have– subarctic conditions.
That keeps your cat numbers down.
I believe in the North-USA most of them die in winter.
Hi Bridget – I have only rarely heard of cats surviving the winter here without shelter and a food source, and that is in the South and near people where mice and rats can live off of people’s garbage, and the cats live off of the mice and rats.
If cats are everywhere, it would be because people are everywhere.
Where there are houses and roads and boys with BB guns, wild animals die. Two boys out for the day, shooting song birds can kill more birds than a cat will in its lifetime.
The cats get blamed. Cats do kill some birds. But it is the numbers of people which kills species.
Retrieverman’s quote on how many of species of birds cats have killed is WORLD-WIDE, meaning if you count everywhere in the world, not just the US.
On some islands were the birds nest on the ground and the birds were tame because nothing was on the island to hunt them, when people moved there, with dogs, and cats, and guns, the birds went extinct. The cats got blamed.
50 years ago, the US had little towns surounded by forest – not so much now.
We have large forest saved by the government, but these are often like lumber farms, each year, part of it is cut down, all the trees in that patch.
Then baby trees are planted, and in about 10 to 15 years, those trees are cut down for their wood, and it starts over, with more baby trees.
We also have Parks that are NOT cut down for their wood. Some of our Parks are very large.
Retrieverman believe that the decline of the bird populations is due to cats, and other things.
I think it is due to poisons, like those used to kill rats and mice, and due to herbicides used to killweeds, and pesticides used to poison insects, and due to the high number of people with all their needs and waste.
People know how to do so in manner that doesn’t harm the environment. These wild cats (who would attack you if you tried to run up and hug them) have no control. As has been stated in this article, they have already helped cause extinction of several species. And yes, we have too, but the difference is that we learn from our damages, and are trying to keep these things from happening. If we just left feral cats like you wish, we’d have no wild birds left. There are so many feral cats in my neighborhood it’s disgusting. I can’t tell you how many of the birds that visit my feeders they’ve eaten. I’m currently getting ready to trap and put them down. I consider it a service to the environment.
Please sit and actually think about what you’re typing before you post. Maybe pick up some textbooks and read. Study some on the issue so you’re more informed and not spewing your inane opinions. Stop wearing your heart on your sleeve. After all, it’s better to let people think you’re an idiot that to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
p.s. it wasn’t robins carrying the avian flu. It was primarily the house finch (another introduced species BTW) and their populations were severely reduced and are now recovering. Not a big problem; they’re widely common. When your cats kill uncommon, low-population, ground-nesting, slow-to-fly birds like woodthrushes, it IS a problem.
Why do your domestic, introduced, nonnative predator cats have a right to do that?
May you never get West Nile Virus, which a free roaming cat could have saved you from. But then, some people have to learn by experience.
Many birds migrate south for the winter, and then north again in the summer. They can be vectors for diseases and parasites.
Because some birds migrate into tropical areas, and drink from warm lakes and unhealthy sewer-laced puddles, in both remote and urban areas, they can bring more than just song with them in the spring.
They can carry disease which can infect local bird populations, people, pets, livestock, and they can turn local insects into disease vectors.
Dirty Birds. They can carry more than just avian flu. Each year, they bring back disease from their migrations. Where do you think other flu types come from?
Not from cats. Cats could get sick from eating sick birds and rodents, but if the cats are allowed to keep rodent and bird numbers low, then disease doesn’t spread as quickly.
Unlike Australia, few cats in the US can live in the wild. Most feral cats live near people. They eat the rodents which eat the garbage.
I once watched cats gather around one of those big dumpsters behind a gas-station/convenience store. There seemed to be no end to the number of mice the cats found and killed.
The clerk inside said that the cats came every evening and stayed until it got warm in the morning, and that they caught one mouse after another. Made me wonder about the restaurant next door.
I think people are just tired of the double-standards.
1) If a dog is poisoned, or shot, it’s usually passed off as “Oh, I thought he was a coyote,” and the matter is usually dropped. If a cat is poisoned, or shot, people get bent out of shape over it and presses animal cruelty charges.
2) Feral dogs are usually destroyed, deemed untrainable; feral cats usually are not, just re-released after being neutered.
3) Feral cat colonies are vectors for diseases. Bringing up that rodents and birds can be vectors for disease is valid, but it’s intellectually dishonest not to consider the other side of the story. In fact, many disease outbreaks are tied to parasites harboured by cats.
4) Dogs are required in most large cities to be licensed, leashed and kept indoors, tied up or on a properly-fenced property. Many districts don’t allow dogs to be off a leash outside of dog-parks. Cats are not subjected to the same standards and usually are allowed to free-roam.
5) Comparing feral populations and hunting are not the same. Dogs and humans in the western world don’t sustain their existing population on wild games anymore these day.
6) Foxes and coyotes take the role of being rodent-control. Stoats, minks and fishers also take up this role in the urban landscape. Hawks and eagles, in which their younglings are preyed on by cats, are responsible for rodent and bird control as well. Ravens are often sighted to go after birds and rodents as well.
7) In a town in the Northwest Territories, rodents were often controlled by ravens and hawks. When people started keeping cats due to reliable heat source, the predatory ravens and hawks declined big-time because the cats were preying on them; eventually the cats became responsible for controlling the rodent population after the local predatory birds took a population dive. Just because cats can be used to control rodents, it doesn’t means it’s the only solution– oftentimes, cats wipe out the apex predators in similar niches before cats are soughed out to be used as vermin-control.
Before accusing me of being a cat-hater, I always had a cat around. They were never outdoors because they could fallen prey to coyotes, other dogs and could be poisoned.
The double standard which I see is greatly in favor of the dog.
People get upset if a dog is killed – even if there is a leash law for dogs, and the dog was causing problems on someone else’s property, chasing cars down the road, or growly at children walking to school.
If a pet cat is killed, so many people say “It was just a cat”.
None of those wild animals you name as alternitive rodent control animals are found in cities anywhere that I have lived.
I have never seen a stoat, mink, or fisher – name me an urban landscape where these wild animals live and control rodents.
Foxes and coyotes? If there were free roaming coyotes in the city (in any great numbers) they would be no free roaming cats! No way are cats stealing the mice away form the coyotes. Free roaming coyotes would kill the cats and small dogs too!
I don’t know what happens when cats meet foxes. But I’ve never seen a fox roaming the city, and if it were there’d be people suspecting it of rabies.
I can count the number of hawks I’ve seen in the city, and some of them had jesses on their legs.
Ravens for mice control? Ravens fly during the day. Mice usually roam at night. Owl might catch mice, but I’ve never seen one in town. Ever seen an owl hunting mice in town – not just resting while flying through?
You left one out. Rattlesnakes. Rattlesnakes eat mice. Rattlesnakes are native. So, yes, cats do eat mice which a native species could have been eating instead. And rattlesnake do sometimes slither into town or are carried in by the a person.
If you would rather have loose rattlesnakes in the city than loose cats, then I would call you a cat-hater, but I guess the term is ailurophobe.
There are leash laws for dogs, but not for cats for a good reason. Rational people wrote those laws.
Cats are small and seldom, if ever, attack people. Cats don’t kill or worry cattle, pigs, sheep, goats, or horses. Cats don’t chase cars. Cats don’t run out and bark at people and try to run people away from ‘their’ neighborhood.
Cats do get rid off mice and rats. They also get rid of birds too sick, injured, or otherwise unable to get away.
Cities like to get rid of mice and rats more than what they like to save pigeons, sparrows, and city birds. Birds in cities are often in flocks and poop on cars, sidewalks, and public places.
As for rare birds in cities. If the cats didn’t kill off the mice and rats, the mice and rats would kill the baby birds in their nests. Rats climb well, mice go everywhere.
And without cats, which birds would reproduce more? The little rare birds? or the mockingbirds, crows, and ravens? And especially the pigeons and the non-native sparrows.
How many dogs have you known that have been shot for even looking at a deer?
I know tons of cases.
Retrieverman – how many cat do you know who have been shot? And cats don’t chase or kill ANY deer?
I know of very few cats that have been shot.
Cats don’t chase deer, but dogs certainly do. And they are shot here if they look at a deer the wrong way.
And because of that, people do pay attention to what their dogs do.
Cats are almost never shot for any reason, unless they show up on a game bird preserve.
Because dogs can be shot for chasing deer, people are more careful with them. Cats aren’t typically shot for any reason, so no one cares.
That’s a problem.
Retrieverman, what are you suggesting be done with the free roaming cats and dogs?
Dogs shouldn’t free roam, unless you live in an area where they can do. If they are, they should be trained to leave the wildlife alone or trained to hunt only what humans want them to. Dogs are able to learn to leave things alone. You don’t need an e-collar necessarily. My grandpa had predatory hunting elkhound that never bother my pet ducks, except one imprinted on him and they were fine until the duck tried to eat out his bowl and he killed it by disciplining it. Dogs are much more intelligent animals than cats are.
I’m okay with farm cats. I concede that they do have a purpose, but feral cat colonies do not. Feral cats should either be shot or trapped and euthanized. That’s the only humane way to deal with them.
Retrieverman, a feral cat colony on a farm is okay with you?
What about a small feral cat colony, say 8 cats, in any area of town that has rat problems?
What about a warehouse where rats are chewing into the cardboard cartons, can they have a feral cat colony, of say 20 cats?
What is wrong with saying that where there are feral rats and mice, feral cats are okay?
On a farm, silage will drawn in the pest rodents. Rodents are easier prey than birds and native mammals.
That’s my only concession, and I don’t think it’s even backed up by science.
The reason is that whenever I do one of these I get someone who actually did reduce rodent depredations by getting a few barn cats.
So I accept that possibility.
Feral cats are like pigeons. There are a few people who go nuts over pigeons and try to take care of them, but no one defends them the way the TNR crowd does.
Lots of people use cats for rodent control. I have talked to people who grew up on farms before people poisoned rodents.
Those cats lived on rodents. Sometimes a little cows milk too.
Despite that some people shoot other peoples’ cats.
Maybe sort of like people being allowed to go onto other people’s property and kill foxes.
But there are other more effective ways at rodent control. I’m okay with the use of warfarin on rats and mice..
Have you ever tried to poison rats when there is grain they can eat in the silo?
They wont eat the poison when they can get better food out of bins, silos, or any other place.
Wasn’t there on arguement here on glue traps, something about needed them because rats got too smart for poison and regular traps?
Think of cats like glue traps of rodents, if that helps.
You can poison rats in a barn when they are hungry, not so easy on a farm when there is plenty for them to eat.
Also there are rodents who don’t live in the barn. They live in the fields. What are you going to do about them?
Cats work well. Coyote might too, but if you have coytoes, the cats can’t leave the barn, or they risk being eaten.
I don’t know about foxes and rats, I guess foxes would hunt them too, but farmers use to have flocks of ranging chickens.
Cats can learn to leave chickens alone. Foxes kill chickens. The word for ferret/ polecat in French translates to “chicken thief”.
I guess some rural people have chickens still, but I know some buy their eggs in the store.
Cities have rodent problems too. Cats solve that problem. Cities need a few loose cats.
No not 100 TNR cats fed in one colony. But cats have their place, both as pets, and as rodent control experts.
Try buying about a dozen corn snakes, milk snakes, king snakes or rat snakes and releasing them in areas on the farm where they have areas to coil up in hiding. Then watch the ray problem disappear.
Oh, and about the cane toads (no room on the narrow thread up top). The US is not Australia. Different environment. Different population densities.
If the choice was cane toads or rattlesnakes, I’d prefer the cane toads. If the choice was 3 way, I’d choose the feral cats.
I just don’t understand why you are so against cats. As Bridget said, the damage they do is minor.
And as I said, the birds they save by getting rid of mice and rats, and the seeds and plants they save from those rodents, is so much greater than the birds they kill themsleves, that, unless the cat population is high enough that their are few rodents left, the birds are better off with more cats, than more rodents.
At least the cats don’t eat the seeds and insects which the birds need – but mice and rats will eat the birds and their food too.
Tell that to the Everglades. Cane toads have been more destructive to parts of South Florida than the Burmese pythons.
Strange that you should mention Florida, which I have heard is where TNR originated.
And they would rather have cats than cane toads, wouldn’t they.
If you would rather have rattlesnakes than cats say so.
I’d rather have rattlesnakes than feral cats? Of course!
Rattlesnakes are horribly maligned creatures to do a vital service to the ecosystem.
Don’t kill foxes. Don’t kills snakes.
You would rather have rattlesnakes in your barn than cats?
Or you would rather that OTHER people have rattlesnakes near their homes instead of cats?
I hope you are joking or very drunk.
Unless you are bothering snakes, they generally will leave you alone. Rattlers included, says someone who lives where timber rattlesnakes should be protected but aren’t.
I don’t know about your house, but none of the places I have lived in qualifies as part of any natural ecosystem.
I have visited farms, and gone camping, and have lived in one woodsy place, but I wouldn’t call them part of an ecosystem.
What type of ecosystem is in people’s backyards?
Wait a minute, cats are bad, cane toads are bad, Australia, venomous snakes are not dangerous….what does that add up to?
Are you Steve Irwin? Faked your death, ran away from fame, to live in West Virginia hill country?
You don’t have to die from a rattlesnake bite to suffer from it.
And having a neighbor who was bitten could have an effect on a person too.
Just today (or yesterday there?), I found this article at the Boseman Daily Chronicle about Errol Brent Bouldin, listed as a dog trainer, and shown in hunting gear with a chocolate Labrador Retriever.
You can find it on google news.
I prefer king snakes, corn snakes and milk snakes. Non poisonous yet very effective. They might even make mince meat out of cane toad populations.
How many times can I say 480 million birds and you say ‘It’s minor’?
Retrieverman, let me say this for the 3rd time, if those feral cats were not there to kill those birds (talking US, not including Hawaii), how many of those birds would have been killed by rats, mice, native predators, or starvation from rats and mice eating the birds food?
It is like the arguement that hunters use: Most of the deer they shoot in the fall would have died by the spring from starvation, had they not been shot because the area the deer lived in was already at carrying capacity.
In other words: would the removal of the cats made any difference to the birds? Or would, in a few years time, the birds would have died from something else?
In Australia, the removal of cats does have a significant effect on mammal and bird populations. The go up when cats are removed.
The answer is native predators would kill them, but not as many for two reasons: 1. Native predators aren’t as numerous as feral cats. 2. These bird and mammal species have evolved evading predation from these species, so they do have some inherent ways of not being eaten.
Native predators are as important as any other native wildlife.
I do NOT live in Australia, do you?
What applies there to little marsupials with no fear of mammalian predators, has nothing to do with wildlife in the US.
Are you counting the dead chickens which go into cat food?
That’s a lot of dead birds to blame on cats. Unless by “cats” you mean young men?
Retrieverman, you don’t read your name-sake do you? Or are you the same person?
There are people who shoot cats, just here on this post, is someone who shoots cats even those cats with a collar and a bell on it.
The bell is to warn other animals about the cat. But it does alert cat killers to the cat too.
Which doesn’t mean much, because its all observation bias; my experience is the exact opposite of yours.
You said yourself, cats are considered cheap or worthless. Everywhere in (rural) Oregon I’ve lived, people (including my family) shoot them with no problem. Shooting a dog is a bigger deal, if for no other reason than it’s considered more valuable property.
Where I live people keep their dogs from running deer, simply because they know they will be shot.
That was the analogy.
In Toronto, where I live, I have seen mink, foxes, hawks and crows (not ravens) all within urban landscape. Urban landscape isn’t only just the concrete jungle, there’s also parks, rivers, lakes, ponds, small woodlots, or just abandoned areas (perfect hiding spots for urban wildlife) that are home to a variety of wildlife. You should not disregard the number of mice and rats each of these predators can catch and eat, even though you may not see them in action. It’s like saying that since I haven’t seen many cats catching and eating rats and mice, then they must not be able to prey on that many either.
Even though some of the hawks may have jesses on, that does not mean that they are trained to hunt on only certain types of prey. If you’ve seen falconry in action, you should know that hawks are generalists and will go after nearly anything that they find as easy prey which includes rats and mice in the city. With regards to ravens (crows, going on the topic of Toronto), they are quite clever and they can and will go after mice. I’ve seen one catch a mouse and hammer its beak on the mouse’ skull until the mouse was dead.
Just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.
Cats may be small, but they certainly are not seldom, if you’ve seen from the huge cat colonies. You say birds flock and poop on cars, sidewalks and public places. Cats are that kind of nuisance too, they poop and spray in gardens, on plenty public places they regard their territory (even if they may be neutered, neutering doesn’t always deter spraying).
Problem is with these feral cats, they don’t just stay in the cities, they travel and roam in to the forests and wilder areas where the “rare birds” are. Of course these rare birds don’t stay in the city, that’s why they are rare.
Cats don’t just kill the sick and injured or weak birds, they’ll kill whatever they can kill which includes perfectly healthy birds that they can catch, which for a cat, a perfect predator, is a really easy thing to do. If cats didn’t kill of mice and rats, people would and it would not make any difference in all honesty. Also, mice and rats would most likely stay in the city and not roam as much since there is ample food and hiding spaces for them. Why move into the wild where there would be even more predators out to get you?
I don’t believe that retrieverman is saying “KILL ALL CATS BECAUSE I HATE CATS!” The message about is more about to manage animal populations before they can become a potential problem for the environment and health regardless of species.
It wouldn’t be so much of a problem if the feral cat colony was all neutered and spayed and stayed the same population (or decreased for that matter). The problem is that a lot of irresponsible owners are forever letting cats outdoors and leaving cats to the elements when they don’t want them anymore. That contributes to increase the population which is not the goal of the TNR program.
To retrieverman: How come there’s no TNR for feral dogs anyways? It’s always only for cats from what I’ve read. Is it because the program for stray and feral dogs is much better or is it that feral cats are just more difficult to habituate to people again?
I’m going beyond what a lot of anti-TNR people will say, which is that farm cats shouldn’t exist. I’m okay with farm cats. I’m willing to make that concession.
But the feral cat colonies are a big ecological problem.
I think the TNR people don’t like UNFIXED farm cats. A farm could be a great place for a TNR cat colony.
Myself, I find it odd when people who breed pushed faced Persian cats, tell farmers that all farm cats should be spayed and neutered.
I could call them the American Farm Mouser. Whatever you call them, if any type of cat could be said to have a valid use, it is the farm cats. I’d sooner have all the show cats fixed.
I don’t like that: Have your farm cats all fixed, but I am going to keep breeding my show cats.
I’m fine with breeding show cats. Most show cats never go outside anyway.
I have no idea what the population structure of show cats are, so I have no informed or desired critique of cat shows.
Most show animals, bred just for show, are bred to have traits different from the functional norm.
If barn cats were to go the way of the typical farm dog, spayed out of existence, out bred by greedy breeders pushing their show type of animal, then where would people get more barn cats when they needed them?
A cross-eyed cats that can’t focus on the mouse is not a good mouse hunters, neither is a pushed face cat that can’t breathe right, but even small unseen changes in show cats can make them less useful as a barn cat.
Barn cats need to be able to live loose together in a barn. All the cat show people who I have spoken with, keep their cats in cages, not in prides.
Barn cats need to be able to survive on mice, sometimes with cow’s milk, (or sometimes cat food) but their whole job is to kill mice and rats.
Barn cats need weather skills, they need to instinctively know what to do in summer and winter.
They need a very healthy immune systems to live on wild mice, on a farm, with whatever comes their way.
They need to be able to raise their kittens in a barn with other cats around.
Any of these things could have been changed in a show cat, and nobody would be able to see it, because nobody test for mousing abilities, and the ability to live loose in a cat colony in a barn.
If all the show cats were to suddenly be gone, show breeders could replace them with barn cats, and write standards for the American Farm Mouser, but if all the barn cats were to disappear, they couldn’t be replaced with show cats.
I don’t like the conciet of some cat show breeders who say that barn cats, and pet house cats should all be spayed and neutered (made extinct), but that, they and their friends, who breed show cats, should get to keep breeding. Sounds very selfish to me.
How can someone with 20 breedable show cats complain about a person with one cat? They can breed all the litter they want, but a regular person shouldn’t get to? How mean is that?
I can understand favoring barn cats and house cats over show cats. But I can accept all 3.
But favoring show cats while wanting the extinction of barn cats because they kill some birds is just about exactly the same as saying:
“I am in favor of SHOW Golden Retrievers but not field bred Golden Retrievers or pet Golden Retrievers.
“ALL field type Golden Retrievers shoud be spayed /neutered, because they are used to kill wild birds.
“If a Golden Retriever is found hunting birds, the Golden Retriever should be shot.
“If a Golden Retriever is not in a house or on a leash, it should be shot, because it might kill birds.”
See how stupid and mean it sounds?
I like you. I like what you write. I marvel at your calmness. But, I think you are wrong about blaming the cats. I think that reads just as horrible as anti-Golden Retriever trash would.
Oh, and I love Golden Retrievers.
But I wanted a cat example which a Golden Retriever person would understand.
The irony, in all the thing you listed about retrievers, is rural folks and some of the more remote suburbs DO say that to dog owners.
I suppose because farm cats serve a purpose and are less obtrusive than say a ratting dog is. Although, now the question would be that, these cats have all the freedom in the world to leave the farm, would they go off and become feral and join up with a colony?
It seems this arguing with HDP is getting nowhere, he/she is using very emtional arguments. I don’t think no matter what you say, you will get him/her to understand your point because he/she has a very staunch belief.
I’ve never really thought much on the TNR program before you mentioned of its issue in your blog, and I’ve aloways thought it actually did some good. Your blog makes for good thinking.
Anywyas, the prvious was the longest I’ve ever written on any blog or reply. It’s getting late and I’m off to bed. Have a goodnight!
Farm Cats? Maybe if they wore a collar with a jingling and loud bell, so the indigenous creatures could hear them and I could look around to locate the bell before shooting. But, I still don’t see how that helps a nest of helpless birds with or without the collar the fate would be the same. I like to see hummingbird, robins and jays. Hey I even like bats. Prefer them to Cats.
Hi Argos,
We come from different places. Most of the big cities that I know of don’t have wild animals in them.
Here if you got rid of the free range cats, the mice and rat number would get so high they’d gnaw into peoples attics. It’s been tried. The city needs some loose cats.
How many loose cats? One per house is enough. 4 per house is too many. We had a neighbor with 4 cats, the cats get territorial, and so 2 or 3 of them would be pushed into roaming into neighbors’ yards.
That the cats keep down the number of feral pigeons and feral non-native sparrow is good too. The pigeons are interesting in small groups but in huge flocks, where they roost, the cars are covered with bird poop, and nearest to where they sleep it stinks from the poop.
Rabbits are cute, but you don’t want 800 of them running around your neighborhood.
Of course not.
Hawks, falcons and eagles nest in skyscrapers. Foxes and coyotes take dens in sewers and ditches. Raccoons are usually hidden away in a garbage can.
I’ve never seen a urban wildlife in person, but I have caught them on trap cameras.
Most city slickers have never seen a rat before, unless they live in a heavily-infested area. By your logic, rats don’t exist.
Just because you don’t see them, it doesn’t means they don’t exist.
Actually, you’re wrong. You must not be looking in the right places. I’ve seen all kinds of Raptors in every big city I’ve been too. Many big metropolises (Los Angeles, for example) have wild coyotes and deer roaming the city. And then there are raccoons, opossums, snakes, etc that wouldn’t stick out as much as a deer would in New York. All of those predatory animals do a more than adequate job of pest control in an urban environment. And when problems arise, that’s what pest control is for. I don’t see any need to have feral cats roaming.
Hi again Argos,
Where I grew up, the cats would never get outside the city, they would be run over by cars if they left the neighborhhod.
Cats that roamed free on the edge of the city where they might be safer from cars, actually lived shorter lives. Coyotes eat cats.
Female farm cats seldom leave the farm they are born on. Once there are just enough female cats to eat all the rodents, then the kittens don’t survive well, unless someone feeds the mother cats.
Often a barn is ruled by one male cat. If male kittens live, when they are older kittens, the big male cat chases them away. They sometimes survive in the fields, but winter is hard on them, and no other barn will accept them.
It is like lions. Each piece of the farm which cats can survive in, is an owned territory of the resident cats. Resident cats wont let new cats in.
Sometimes the male cat will die and a new male cat in his prime, will move in. Sometimes a new male will chase the resident male away, and the old king cat will roam the fields but not come close to the barn.
Not all snakes are rattlesnakes. Many of the so-called “rattlesnakes” are actually non-venomous bullsnakes and gophersnakes.
i know in Alberta, they made killing of rattlesnakes illegal. We know they are there, they’re not exactly endangered, in fact there are den sites within a few cities, but the only people I know of who honestly have seen a rattlesnake are the ones who went out looking for one; everyone else just mistaken bullsnakes for rattlesnakes because they have similar markings and bullsnakes do “rattle” their tail, except they don’t have a rattler.
And no, the Albertan government isn’t trying to endanger people’s lives. They are trying to maintain the reputation of being a rat-free province, which is a baldfaced lie; so by making it illegal to kill rattlesnakes, bullsnakes are not mistaken and slaughtered and their high metabolism keep the rodents at bay while at the same time keeping the rattlesnake population low enough that it’s not a daily hazard for people out in golf courses and in the field.
Since it is humans that cause the most problem to other animals and plants on this planet and the cause of feral cats and dogs why are you all not talking about how to control the human population?
Absolutely, through family planning. Family planning is very important.
Feral cats are a human caused environmental problem, just like pollution and habitat destruction. I don’t see this issue as separate from the bad things we’ve done to the ecosystems. We should be doing all we can to correct everything that affects biodiversity. Feral cats may not be the top issue affecting populations of these small animals, but they are one of the top issues.
In our neighborhood, there are three signs on the same power pole:
A missing duck poster
A missing cat poster
A Watch Out for the Neighborhood Coyote poster
Hmmm…
I’m going to take an entirely different tack on this. The original article is here: http://www.ianrpubs.unl.edu/epublic/live/ec1781/build/ec1781.pdf
Agree or disagree with the conclusions, the one thing that stood out in this publication was the LACK OF DATA. There are a lot of assertions made: cats kill mostly native animals — but no scat studies referenced to validate the comment. The value of the birds was predicated on “4 birds per cat” (again, no stats to show scat analysis validated this) AND an assumption that the birds in question were valuable like chickens, game birds, etc, as opposed to house sparrows (introduced), pigeons (introduced, pest) and others. Ditto for the rodent assertions.
The comment that TNR didn’t “work” was based on numbers but no documentation on WHERE those numbers came from or how many studies were done to validate them. The statement regarding 400,000 decendents in 7 years based on “ideal conditions” is absurd — for one thing, feral cats are never in “ideal” conditions.
I am not keen on feral cats. They are generally a potential disease vector and they are not a native animal. But I am even LESS keen on propaganda masquerading as “science” — this isn’t even BAD science. It’s a bunch of statements made with absolutely NO documentation provided with them to validate the assertions. It doesn’t deserve to be popularized or promoted in any way. If what the Neb Univ says is true, they ought to provide the documentation for it. Otherwise, it’s just statements of someone’s opinion. “peer reviewed”? What was reviewed???? Where are the FACTS upon which the conclusions are based?????
Sheesh.
Peggy Richter.
The original article is here: http://www.ianrpubs.unl.edu/epublic/live/ec1781/build/ec1781.pdf
Agree or disagree with the conclusions, the one thing that stood out in this publication was the LACK OF DATA. There are a lot of assertions made: cats kill mostly native animals — but no scat studies referenced to validate the comment. The value of the birds was predicated on “4 birds per cat” (again, no stats to show scat analysis validated this) AND an assumption that the birds in question were valuable like chickens, game birds, etc, as opposed to house sparrows (introduced), pigeons (introduced, pest) and others. Ditto for the rodent assertions.
The comment that TNR didn’t “work” was based on numbers but no documentation on WHERE those numbers came from or how many studies were done to validate them. The statement regarding 400,000 descendents in 7 years based on “ideal conditions” is absurd — for one thing, feral cats are never in “ideal” conditions.
I am not keen on feral cats. They are generally a potential disease vector and they are not a native animal. But I am even LESS keen on propaganda masquerading as “science” — this isn’t even BAD science. It’s a bunch of statements made with absolutely NO documentation provided with them to validate the assertions. It doesn’t deserve to be popularized or promoted in any way. If what the Neb Univ says is true, they ought to provide the documentation for it. Otherwise, it’s just statements of someone’s opinion. “peer reviewed”? What was reviewed???? Where are the FACTS upon which the conclusions are based?????
Sheesh.
Peggy Richter.
how about THIS fact: can you name a single feral cat colony that has been eradicated through TNR?
no, because that is not even the goal.
The goal of TNR is to ensure that there are always feral cats and that no one is allowed to lethally control them.
Yes. All of us who support TNR totally have a super-secret agenda to keep feral cats around FOREVERS ’cause they’re cute ‘n stuff.
We are all, in fact, in the process of petitioning Winograd to change the name to “Commission of People Who Love Fluffly Things Except Song Birds We Hate Those Feathered Bastards”
Winograd is correct about No-Kill, but he destroys most of his argument by wasting time on an invasive species.
Dogs are not an invasive species, although they do have some effect on native populations. it’s nothing like cats. That’s because dogs have to learn most of their predatory behavior and most people don’t let them breed up in the wild. They do in Romania, and they are dangerous animals, moving in vast hordes and attacking people and killing pet dogs. The genus Canis evolved on this continent, and all prey species impacted by dogs have evolved with dog predation. The only native cats that have anything like Felis silvestris behavior are jaguarundis, and I don’t have to tell you their range is a bit limited in the US.
Why does no one talk about the public health aspect of feral cats? Even vaccinated cats carry disease– any animal that exists at volume will have epidemics. Pigeons are called rats with wings for a reason.
Really?
Because I know of a least one very credible conservation organization (Audubon Society) that opposes TNR and thinks this study is fine:
http://magblog.audubon.org/feral-cat-predation-birds-costs-billions-dollars-year
This is the problem with ALL of the feral cat wildlife impact studies out there – all of the estimates are based on assumptions that are based on at best, informal (and often biased) observations (which is the same complaint anti-TNR people have for the TNR studies!). For a small scientific paper, that’s not such a bad thing. But unfortunately, people like Scott try to use them in far too broad applications.
“Kill all feral cats” isn’t the right conclusion to draw from this paper. Maybe, “hey, in certain areas, feral cats may be a more significant problem and we should do something about them”.
Let’s say they turned out brush-tailed possums, and they were doing the same amount of damage.
What would you say?
I used to read this blog, but then one day there was something written about shooting cats.
I like cats. But I liked this blog. Conflict of emotions on my part. I didn’t consider argueing, so I decided to quit reading this blog.
But then I re-thought my decision. I remembered someone who I liked, who shot cats. He didn’t live near me, but I still spoke to him – after growling a lot about his shooting cats.
Then I though of another cat hater, who I guessed probably killed cats too. I expressed my opinion whenever he mentioned hating cats.
I also remember a letter someone showed me, from another cat hater, whose behavior was less than nice towards cats. It ruined my opinion of her, but I didn’t know her well enough to growl at her.
I thought about these people, and about finding out that a blogger, who I like to read…….well, he wont say he hates cats, but he likes rattlesnakes better than cats.
I recalled how many times I have read in blogs something negative about pit bulls, and then a bunch of people comment about how they disagree. They don’t seem to say “Gee, I will get banned from this blog if I argue for pit bulls.
So I decided to defend cats. The idea being that if I did not, the only other choice would be to quit reading the blog, and I still like the rest of it. Can’t have everything.
But, as there are people who defend pit bulls or quit anti-pit bull blogs, so the cats have me.
But I think if I ever start my own blog again, I will start it with a list of what is okay, and what topics I don’t want to argue. But I do remember one host who did that AFTER his blog was going full speed, and it dropped done to very few comments.
Funny how people assume that if someone agrees with them on 11 topics, that they will agree with them on the 12th topic too.
I like cats. If liking cats is forbidden here, then I don’t qualify here. But as long as I can argue for them, then I don’t get upset like I would if I couldn’t say anything.
I have written about shooting cats before– in Australia.
I have written about my position on TNR several times before.
I hope you’ll respect my right to disagree with you, and if that means you won’t read what I write, then I’m sorry.
I have gained subscribers since writing this post, not lost them.
I have never shot a cat, though I did think about shooting one once as a boy when one interrupted my squirrel hunt.
I respect you and your right to disagree. I only meant that many bloggers would have banned me for MY disagreeing so very much – but I had to defend the cats, even if I got banned for it.
You handled it very well. I am glad you didn’t ban me. I wasn’t angry, just worried if each next post would go through or come back saying “Cat Lover scat!”
I ban very few people.
You say yourself that the feral problem comes from people who don’t value cats. People who think they’re worthless think nothing of turning them loose.
Regardless of how good the numbers are in this scientific paper (and I have my doubts), at the end of the day, I don’t see how encouraging people to kill cats, (I’m assuming with the help of taxpayer money?) will help them value cats MORE and end the cycle. Seems to me that would have the opposite effect.
You may be able to distinguish between cat-the-pet and cat-the-invasive-species, but most people can’t. When you calmly assert that shooting cats is not just super-awesome but necessary, you’re not gonna get anywhere with cat-lovers or even-likers.
I’ve stayed out of this one for awhile, but since it’s still going on, I reckon I’ll throw my two cents’ worth in….I suppose everyone was so riled by the killing aspect they overloked the comment about dogs being smarter than cats!!!! Retrieverman, I can just see the mischievious twinkle in your eye when you post comments like that! But no cat-lover rose to that bait–you must be dissapointed! I know I am!….. But back to the subjects at hand involving feral cats–no question feral cats cause LOTS of damage to small wildlife populations, and unlike a truly wild predator, which is controlled by natural checks-and-balances, cats are CONSTANTLY being dumped in large numbers by humans above and beyond anything any natural ecosystem can control–or at least, that USED to be the case! I think the spread of coyotes has done an excellent job keeping feral cats in check–I used to see feral cats and their sign in very isolated places–but no longer. In hunting with tree hounds, cats used to be treed all the time on the many hunts I’ve been on–it is a rarity now. There will ALWAYS be feral cats, but in the U. S., at least, they now have an effective 24/7 natural predator to keep them in check, so I think in most rural areas feral cat control by humans is rather a moot point. In urban areas? I don’t see too much of a problem catching, spay/neutering and releasing them there–if that’s what some peole want to do–they really do help somewhat with rodent control, and most of the birds they nail in the city are invasives(like piegons and Starlings and English Sparrows) themselves anyway. From the sounds of things, as coyotes become more and more urban animals themselves, in some cities at least, they’ll be controlling cats there as well……
Retrieverman, cattle roam loose on public lands, those cattle ruin the public land they trample, do you believe in shooting them too?
Are they an invasive species, trampling ‘your’ grasslands?
The ranchers have to tolerate some horses and burros, just as we have to tolerate their cattle. And cats are part off the whole people package too – they kill rodents, and yes some birds too, though I doubt the numbers you give.
We are an invasive species, although Native Americans did live in peace with nature. But if you are not a Native American. then YOU are an invasive species. If you are not a vegetarairian then your eating beef supports the cattle industry whose cattle trample range.
(I eat meat, but I don’t say cattle don’t graze grasslands, I am honest about it, and willing to discuss multiple use.)
You speak of favoritism. But you favor yourself and your species, and cattle, don’t you? And dogs? You like hunting dogs, but not cats that hunt.
I will tell you how this all read to me: It is pointless to reason with you about cats because your words are only smoke screens for how you feel. The core problem here, as I view it, is your feelings.
If you need help to understand how you feel, or just why you feel the way you do, maybe you should explore your feelings about cats with a councelor, because it seems to me that your feelings are interferring with your logic.
We all have our quirks, and it seems to me that cats are your achillies heel.
Maybe you should read on ailurophobia, or fear of cats. I think you write like a person who hates cats, we all have our differences. But that you can’t come out and say that you hate cats, even on your own blog – that a cat does have your tongue – that bothers me.
Maybe not a fear of cats but a fear of saying how you feel about them?
But it is often said, that hatred of cats is often a fear of emotions about cats. You have written about what you think of cats, now let us hear the other half, how do you feel about cats? Honestly.
I’m not a fan of cattle on public lands either– or any livestock at all.
But I’m not the secretary of the Interior. I agree with this statement:
Cattle ranching on the public lands of the American West is the most sacred form of public welfare in the United States.
–Edward Abbey
See, I actually like Siamese cats and other oriental breeds.
If I were going to get a cat I’d get a Siamese or a British Burmese.
Yeah, and I don’t really like flocks of cats pooping in my yard either.
But one small terrier will keep them out without hurting them.
But, seriously cats do make good pets. A kid, a string, and a kitten = lots of fun. Wait, I am saying the kid should let the kitten chase the string. Don’t read that wrong.
I like the more extroverted Siamese cats too, but most of the others will be friendly like that too, but you have to start with them young, before their eyes are open.
(That’s one reason to have pet kittens come from pet house cats, not catteries).
Siamese are more people-oriented, and more inter-active.
But the color gene is said to cause vision problems. The oriental shorthairs are said not to have that eye problem, but they aren’t as attractive looking to me as a plumper cat. But they are low shedding.
Siamese meow a lot – some of them are non-stop talkers.
re feral cats & their fear of humans:
Cats have an earlier critical-socialization period than dogs.
if they have no happy experiences with humans by 5-WO, they will be severely under-socialized even IF they are taken into a human-home & worked with, from 5-WO.
kittens who are weaned, & past 9-WO, will be very-hard to habituate to human-homes & socialize so that they can be handled –
their ‘opinions’ of people are ignorant, but very concrete:
they’re scared of them, & want nothing to do with humans.
pups born of street-dogs or strays are much easier to socialize to humans, assuming they are under 12-WO when found.
dogs also scavenge, as opposed to hunt, for the vast majority of their food.
so dogs have nowhere near the impact on native-species that cats have, when they are allowed to roam.
that said, i don’t think dogs should free-roam any more than cats should;
dogs off-leash, fine, so long as they are on their own property,
OR supervised by an adult-human: hunting, herding, running for exercise, hiking, camping, all good things.
running on the neighbor’s property to sh*t in the yard, leg-lift on the door jamb, or harass their pets, chase their stock, or jump on their kids, etc?
bad idea, & even-worse in practice.
cheers,
– terry
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
re the control of feral-cat populations –
i have no problem with live-traps & euthanasia, or allowing feral-cats to be shot by hunters.
i would NOT support poison, as too many non-target species are affected, along with the sheer cruelty of a poisoning death.
i think a Federal bounty might be an excellent idea – but such a bill probably would not pass in the legislature.
i think state-wide bounties might pass in some states, & i think that might help – it’s hard to say just how many folks would be willing to hunt cats, but every little bit helps, IME.
i think a multi-pronged approach might be most helpful:
– MANDATORY microchips for owned dogs & cats,
recorded on the license, for those owners who live in any county, city, town, etc, which licenses dogs & cats.
– MANDATORY microchips for all kittens
to be inserted sub-Q before they leave the breeder, & transferred from the breeder’s name to the buyer or new-owner [if the kitten is given away, traded, etc]. That should apply even in areas where cats are not required to be licensed – as it makes the “lost” cat findable when they arrive at the ACC & are scanned.
mandatory chipping makes ANIMAL ABANDONMENT a viable charge.
owners who abandon an intact-animal create an ongoing problem for the native animals, resident humans, & ACC-authorities – and they should, IMO,
pay for their deliberate actions. They create co$ts; they should pay for the infraction.
any cat not chipped can be presumed to be feral, & euthanized.
if U don’t want Ur cat to be killed when or if s/he arrives at the local ACC,
chip her or him – problem solved. AND UPDATE RECORDS –
if U move, change phones, change vets, CHANGE the contacts on file.
i don’t hate cats – but i despise owners who allow their cats to roam.
if that’s U, take it personally – take umbrage, be outraged! how dare i?!
I DARE BECAUSE I SPENT YEARS fixing damaged wildlife, & all too often,
watched them die.
wildlife-rehab is rewarding only if a live-animal returns to their home.
it is thankless, depressing, & endless when cat-owners set Kitty free.
have any of the owners of free-roaming cats bothered to donate massive sums of money to wildlife rehab, often run on a shoestring out of private homes?
not in my experience.
unapologetically,
– terry
Mandatory microchips?
That’s a good way to rile up the conspiracy theorists.
but if they truly LOVE that cat – they want her/him back, right?
the simplest way to get kitty back home is a chip: can’t be removed or lost.
unlike a tattoo, U don’t have to shave to keep it visible.
unlike tags on a collar, it cannot be removed.
it is proof of ownership if the animal is stolen, too. ::thumb-up::
oh, fer pity’s sake.
finding TERRORISTS WHO DON’T LOOK LIKE TERRORISTS?
that’s a far, far cry, across the holler & way around the mountain, from putting a &*$#@! microchip in an owned cat. Sheesh, what drivel.
Actually, you will be surprised how many dog breeders out there who think all the new fangled technology out there is making their dogs sick.
I wouldn’t be surprised if cat people are just as weird.
I’ve heard some theories that the chips increase a likelihood of cancer, but there are no scientific studies on this.
Yes. I’m certain that cat people think these sorts of things.
That’s because they are cat people.
[…] cats are much harder to work with. Dogs normally aren’t allowed to roam, but cats usually are. And cats kill $17 billion in damages to birds and other small wildlife in the United […]
Anyone who would randomly kill any living thing that has a right to exist has all the makings of a serial killer. Keep in mind they once killed animals too.
The feral cats in my neighborhood are keeping the rodent population down to a minimum. I feed them and yes, they kill an occasional bird, but far more mice. At least the cat will eat parts of the bird that have the most nourishment, and I really do question the author’s assertion that cats are doing 17 billion in damages to birds. Where do these statistics come from and how do you account for the cost–vet bills?
Humans do far greater damage to other humans, animals, and the environment than any feral cat I’ve known. For example, I have yet to see one mother cat abuse or kill her young. Can you say the same about human mothers? Also these cats are fit, alert, and very active, unlike some human fat behinds too lazy to work or exercise. They cost billions in unpaid hospital bills, which in turn affects all of our insurance rates.
Perhaps humans (the so-called “superior species”) ought to be exterminated too for all the damages they cause? Well of course not, then why do it to God’s creatures who are just trying to survive?
Yeah, so many deer hunters are serial killers.
Of course, deer in a grain field are cereal killers.
I bet you have a bad case of toxoplasmosis that is fucking up your brain.
You probably should read the comment guidelines at the top of this blog before commenting.
You’re in violation of several of them.
Would you like it if someone turned loose a bunch of leopards in your neighborhood?
I bet you’d hate it. Lots of danger for children, dogs, and people walking at night.
But you’re okay with turning loose scores of mini-leopards into an ecosystem.
A tabby is a leopard to a chipmunk, a song sparrow, or a baby cottontail.
Oh … just read the comment guidelines. Didn’t know ’til now this is a blog created by someone who has no respect or tolerance for differing opinions. I was under the impression that thought-provoking comments would be okay as long as we didn’t curse or hurl insults.
Which brings me to your insulting comment: “I bet you have a bad case of toxoplasmosis that is fucking up your brain”…
Actually, I have a “bad case of political correctness that is no doubt fucking up YOUR brain.”
Deer hunters do not necessarily make serial killers, but all serial killers began as animal killers…It’s a fact. Grow up and deal with it.
Anyone who would go around harming an innocent cat is a danger to society. So try putting your gun down and go pick up a book!
I do tolerate well-thought out opinions.
I don’t tolerate moralizing bullshit.
You are correct about serial killers, but the thing is that serial killers take pleasure from giving an animal pain.
You provided no evidence for your position. You refuted NONE of the facts revealed in this post.
I have read a book. I just think feral cats are a major environmental problem, and there is plenty of evidence in peer-reviewed journals that show this.
But you’d rather not read that.
That would involve facts and logic and what’s empirically verifiable.
Concepts that are obviously foreign to you.
[…] It is little secret that I have something that might be called outright contempt for feral cats. […]
[…] might prey on mice and young rats, but they also prey on birds and amphibians and […]
You say: “I have nothing against cat ownership. I do have issues with irresponsible cat ownership” That itself is politically correct in many ways. In countries where they are not native, especially in unique habitats which harbour unique bird species , cat ownership itself is sometimes the bane. Even the tenacious Department of Conservation, New Zealand has been forced to bow down to the sentiments of a few cat owners in the Stewart island – which despite having excellent habitat is held hostage by the cat owners in that island who value the feral cat more than the global treasure i.e native birds of that island which have been wiped out by the vicious beasts. In such zones, cat ownership should be treated on par with drug addiction. Also Globally people should be weaned away from this practice of cat ownership which is relic from the infancy of human civilization. Those wanting non barking pets could try guinea pigs or even chickens- they make far better pets than cats.