Canis lupus hominis

Posted in animal welfare, wildlife | Tagged leghold traps, trapping | 50 Comments

50 Responses

1. on December 8, 2010 at 9:31 am Jennie

   Is there reason the wildlife conservationists have to use leghold traps, as opposed to humane full body traps? If so, is the reason related to convenience and/or cost?

   I disagree with their statement that wildlife conservationists would have rejected the trap if it caused harm. Conservationists cause harm to individual animals all the time. They are concerned with populations in the meta sense, not necessarily individual animals.

   Even if the animal isn’t injured by the trap’s closing, none of those animals look particularly comfortable or happy. “Neither harmed or alarmed,” does not seem to be a great description of what these animals are going through, since all of them seem to display pretty typical distress signs. Would you do this to your dog?

   Beware of advocacy groups telling you the item they’re advocating is “value neutral” and that’s a FACT.

   However, I think the knowledge they have of the tracks and kinds of animals who travel in the location of the trap is fascinating. I spent my youth living in a wooded, mountainous region and wish I had learned more about tracking.

   
   
   • on December 8, 2010 at 10:05 am retrieverman

     They wouldn’t be happy if the had been caught in a cage trap or a body gripping trap. Legholds are the only effective way to catch wild canids. They simply are too cautious and intelligent to get into a cage trap.Wolf conservation in North America is entirely reliant upon these traps, as is otter conservation.

     Also, keep in mind that these animals are very frightened of people, and when a person approaches and they can’t get away, they tend to act up more.

     One of the problems trappers have is there are sites that put up animals caught in illegal traps or poorly maintained traplines in which the animals really do harm themselves.

     I am not a fan of conibear or “sudden death” traps. Those things can only be used in water sets most states.

     The legholds, if used properly, are not that injurious to the animals. The manufacturers have worked very hard to make them as humane as possible. One of the reasons why they make them humane is that they know what the public image of trappers is. They also know what can happen if a dog gets hurt in a trap. If the dog belongs to a landowner that gave the trapper permission, then the trapper could be blamed.

     I would not do this to my dog, because my dog is not a wild animal whose population must be managed. My dog doesn’t have reproductive ability. All of these foxes do. All of these foxes have many kits in their litters, and when fox densities get high, disease transmission becomes more common. Mange and distemper and other diseases work their way through the population. Those diseases are far more painful and horrific than being trapped in a leghold trap. Coyotes do regulate fox numbers a bit, but a coyote won’t run foxes just to eat them. A fox can fight back a lot more than a rabbit can.

     
     
2. on December 8, 2010 at 12:46 pm EmilyS

   “One of the problems trappers have is there are sites that put up animals caught in illegal traps or poorly maintained traplines in which the animals really do harm themselves.”

   Of course “real” trappers would never ever do such a thing.

   Of course diseases or predation are a far more horrible way to die than being caught in a trap for x hours and then killed to satisfy the vanity of people.

   of course.

   
   
   • on December 8, 2010 at 1:03 pm retrieverman

     Ethical trappers don’t do those things. They do everything to ensure animals don’t injure themselves in the traps. Every trapper knows that the PR game is stacked against him, so he has to do all that he can to make sure animals aren’t harmed. Many of the photos on those sites are decades old, and trap technology has advanced since then. They now make rubber jawed traps that, according to studies, are just as effective as the steel-jawed ones.

     It takes a fox weeks to die of mange and at least a week to die of distemper or parvovirus. How is that a better fate than being trapped?

     Too much emotionalism with this issue.

     Seriously, talk to a trapper before making judgments.

     I have no problem with trapping animals for their fur. I have no more than I have trouble with people hunting for food. You can’t tell me synthetic furs don’t have some environmental impact– look at what they are made out of.

     The reason why these animals are trapped and not shot is that shooting the animals degrades the quality of the pelt.

     
     
3. on December 8, 2010 at 6:23 pm HDP

   Retrieverman, just because it was okay in your grandparent’s day, doesn’t mean that it is okay now.

   Where is your heart? What has happened? First a post on shooting cats, then 2 posts on trapping.

   It is one thing to say “Hey how else can I get a fur coat?” (Oh, and would you look cute in one?) But just plain stupid to use the word “humane” with trapping.

   How would you feel, if one nice day you took your dog out for a walk and got one of your limbs, arm or leg, caught in a bear trap which wouldn’t spring open?

   How would those first moments be, as you frantically tried to open the trap? Do you have any ability to image correctly how you would feel, the emotional pain you would endure, along with the physical pain, as you tried, but failed, to get free of the trap?

   Would you give up in utter pain and exhaustion, as Miley licked your face and whined, unable to help you? As the night grew colder, and you could not find shelter, would you cry in sorrow for your self?

   Or are you growing too cold-blooded for human feelings and tears?

   How would you feel, as dawn came and went, and you could still not get free? Would you think like that hiker several years ago, who had a rock roll and pin his foot. After a few days, he cut off his foot to hobble back to the hiking path, where he got help.

   How would you feel, being trapped, hurt, and alone, then seeing a grizzly bear foraging your way? The bear comes closer and closer. Haven’t animals in traps felt fear when coyotes come near? Don’t you see that animals have feelings too?

   So how would you feel if you were there stuck in a bear trap, and up comes the trapper?

   “What to do?” Well if the trapper gets you out of the trap – you have seen him walking up with the dead animals he got from the other traps in his line – going to be pretty obvious to the police whose illegal bear trap that is.

   But now, if he lets you die, no reporting, no going to the police. And he can still say, it wasn’t his trap – but he might not have to lie to anyone if they never find you.

   How would you feel left to die like that? Would you feel better if the trapper blew your brains out with a rifle shot?

   Either way, you’d be dead.

   Now, I know that there are those who would say that I write about feelings, not cold reason, but a person should have both a heart and a head, and use them both.

   My heart tells me to encourage you to feel about this issue, as well as think about it.

   You can call trapping the best way to get wild animal pelts (other than fur farms) but you can’t say that it is humane.

   I believe your grandparents would be proudest to have a grandson with modern brains and education, and a modern heart with compassion too.

   Unless, you are about to write that not only do you have relatives who kill cats and trap animals, but they also eat their meat raw and live in a cave, so we all should too.

   Okay, I maybe shouldn’t have said that, but that’s the way I feel. Just curious, if we were in person, would you bring up the subjects of shooting cats and trapping little animals to a woman? and expect not to get growled at? Do you talk about things like that in person too?

   
   
   • on December 8, 2010 at 7:27 pm retrieverman

     Don’t insult my family.

     It’s okay in this day, too, because the traps are much more humane.

     My grandparents would be proud of me for stating the facts about trapping, rather than bending to sensationalism.

     
     
   • on December 8, 2010 at 7:36 pm retrieverman

     Do you have a better way to catch wolves so that we can reintroduce them? Collarums are not designed for wolves.

     If it is okay to kill animals to eat them, then it is okay to trap them for fur, especially if the traps are modern and the trappers are conscientious.

     Cars kill and maim more dogs than traps do, so why aren’t we making the case that we should ban cars to keep dogs from being hurt?

     These are important conservation tools.

     Most furbearers die more horrific deaths than those that are trapped. A fox may be a canid, but it’s not a dog. It lives in a very high stress environment. Its whole sense of being was created in stress. Being held in a trap is stressful, but it’s not torture. Why would that gray fox in that video go to sleep with the trap still on its food?

     And why can no one answer why David Mech traps mink?

     You can’t tell me that David Mech doesn’t care about animals and animal welfare.

     
     
4. on December 8, 2010 at 7:19 pm Patti

   While I do understand and support trapping in certain situations, couldn’t you have found a better video to support your position than one produced by the National Trappers Association? That’s sort of like shouting about the wonders of off-shore drilling, and using a video produced by BP to back up your position.

   The video you link to showed lots of catch & release clips. But no clips of animals that haven’t bounced back immediately. Of course a video produced by trappers in support of trapping isn’t likely to show an animal that has a torn or crushed pad or one that has endured twelve (twenty-four, thirty-six) hours hung up in a trap.

   BTW – here’s a clip of a dog named Miley. She was found in a Pittsburgh PA wooded area, less than 100 miles from where your Miley lives and romps in similar terrain.

   This Miley wasn’t found by her owners (if she had them, no details in the video), but if your Miley had encountered a similar trap, would you know what to do?

   BTW – Sorry if the second release video makes some of your male readers uncomfortable. The demo object in the trap was the vet’s choice.

   
   
   • on December 8, 2010 at 7:32 pm retrieverman

     I have yet to find a better video that makes this case. Most of the antis are sensationalist PeTAesque fodder, so I have to use what I can find.

     Yes. Those are good videos for knowing what to do.

     You know dogs get killed and injured by cars all the time, but no one says that we should ban cars. There are responsible ways to trap for fur.

     It is incumbent upon trappers to be responsible with their traps, and it is also incumbent upon people with dogs never to let their dogs off-leash in trapping areas.

     
     
     • on December 8, 2010 at 7:54 pm Patti

       And you don’t think that this video is all rainbows and happy thoughts? It’s the closest thing to Disney that I’ve seen in a long time!

       My comments on cars is below.

       
       
       • on December 8, 2010 at 7:58 pm retrieverman

         I honestly don’t care, because the PeTAesque videos are even more extreme the other way.

         
         
5. on December 8, 2010 at 7:43 pm Patti

   Retrieverman wrote – “it is also incumbent upon people with dogs never to let their dogs off-leash in trapping areas.”

   Ah, but that’s the problem. How does one deal with bird hunting with a dog on public lands (or private lands for that matter), when trapping is also allowed on those lands? When trappers aren’t required to, and usually don’t post that they’re trapping, for fear of someone stealing their catch or disabling their traps?

   Do a search for dogs caught in traps on YouTube or Hunting forums, and you’ll find countless stories of dogs that were caught by various legal traps. The only way that outcomes were positive (and some of them weren’t) was if the owner/handler knew how to release their dog from the trap.

   Oh, and by the way – I found one account with a positive outcome (the dog was released from the trap on public lands, near a trail), where the owner of the dog was later charged and fined because he removed the trap from its location.

   
   
   • on December 8, 2010 at 7:57 pm retrieverman

     Well, this is a land use problem– not a trapping problem or a dog problem.

     Somehow, I think compromise can be brought to it.

     
     
     • on December 8, 2010 at 8:07 pm Patti

       “Well, this is a land use problem– not a trapping problem or a dog problem.”

       And what about the dogs that suffer injury and what about the trappers that lose their catch or equipment until that politically-driven “compromise” is achieved? How long, Grasshopper?

       Most states allow some trapping on public lands. Those same state allow hunting & off-lead dog training on those same lands. So until there is enough political pressure to change the current situation, it’s probably not going to change.

       And if there is political pressure, it’s probably going to be as a result of news stories like that of Miley (posted above), and Morgan & Rosie & Henry (do a YouTube search.) That won’t end well for trappers, or for hunters.

       
       
       • on December 8, 2010 at 8:41 pm retrieverman

         I believe those trappers pay license fees and taxes, so if the state says they have right to run traps on that land, they have as much right as you do.

         Compromise requires both parties giving something. Or you can lobby to ban trapping on public land– which likely won’t happen. Game managers know that trappers are very important for controlling the numbers of mid-level predators in the ecosystem, which might be very necessary to protect endangered species. (From what I understand California has problems with both foxes and feral cats killing certain endangered species).

         Maybe the state can set up actual gun dog training areas and designated trapping areas within its public land system. That way, both parties can use the same resource. I know that Alaska has vast public lands that are designated for different hunting and trapping areas. It is strictly enforced. If Alaska can do it, I don’t see why other states cannot.

         BTW, if a coyote or fox is caught in a leghold once, it won’t happen again. Same with dogs. They may not hurt them, but it’s certainly true they don’t like having their feet bound. Dogs are very touchy about their feet.

         
         
         • on December 8, 2010 at 9:19 pm Patti

           I’m going to write this in a VERY simple way, so that you might finally get what I’m saying.

           Trappers trap on public lands

           Hunters hunt with their dogs on those same public lands

           Dog trainers train on those same public lands.

           Every one of those groups need to understand that they are sharing the same land, and that some of their activities might not be appreciated or understood by the other groups.

           Trappers need to use appropriately safe equipment when trapping near where dogs (and kids) might be ranging.

           Hunters and dog trainers need to recognize the sign of traps, but more importantly, need to understand how to release their dogs (or kids) from a trap that they’ve missed.

           My personal experience is that trappers who trap on public land are doing it for the sport, or for fur trade, unless they are part of a university or government sponsored relocation project.

           Trappers who trap on private land, by invitation of the landowner are a valuable part of land management. I’ve never met a land owner who worries about mange in the over-population of foxes, or lack of sufficient food for a beaver or muskrat population. They *are* worried about the health of their levies or managing predation on their own livestock.

           Oh, and can I remind you about my private email, where I described my recent experience when one of our dogs was nearly caught up in a wire snare trap, large enough and positioned in such a way that it could have easily closed around his neck. That trap was set up in a muskrat path. BUT IN A DOG-TRAINING AREA on conservation land.

           I didn’t mention that it was a PRIVATE DOG TRAINING AREA, WHERE WE PAY ABOUT $500 A YEAR TO TRAIN OUR DOGS IN SAFE CONDITIONS.

           There are careless trappers.

           There are careless & clueless hunters.

           There are clueless dog trainers.

           INFORMATION IS IMPORTANT.

           Are all trappers careless or uninformed? No! Far from it. In many ways, the best trappers remind me of the best fly-fishermen. They study and understand their target prey, where to look for them, how to entice them to strike (or to enter the trap), and how to minimize their impact on other species.

           Understand that everyone (mostly) has the best interests of wildlife at heart, but sometimes they don’t consider how their actions might impact others who are pursuing their own activities.

           
           
           • on December 8, 2010 at 9:25 pm retrieverman

             Trapping on private property without permission is illegal.

             However, I don’t disagree with what you say here in this comment at all.

             Surely dog trainers and trappers can get together and come up with some solution to these problems.

             
             
       • on December 8, 2010 at 8:42 pm retrieverman

         The only trapper I’ve heard of who didn’t own a dog was David Mech, and I’m fairly certain no trapper wants to catch a dog under any circumstance.

         
         
       • on December 8, 2010 at 8:50 pm retrieverman

         http://tinyurl.com/2bz89n4

         Training a dog to stay out of traps 172-173.

         
         
   • on December 8, 2010 at 8:01 pm retrieverman

     You can also train dogs to avoid traps.

     One method I do know actually involves trapping your own dogs.

     
     
     • on December 8, 2010 at 8:53 pm HDP

       Retrieverman, do you speak from experience? Have you trapped Miley and Willie in traps, to know that once is enough?

       I knew a dog that got hit by a car, but right after it got back from the vet, it ran out and played in traffic again.

       And you say that the traps are humane, but have you yourself gone trapping and looked at the animals caught in the traps to know anything about if it was humane?

       
       
       • on December 8, 2010 at 9:07 pm retrieverman

         My grandpa trained all of his dogs to avoid traps.

         And this is the standard method, see this book pages 172-173:

         http://tinyurl.com/24cvxfb

         
         
       • on December 8, 2010 at 9:10 pm retrieverman

         If Miley were to run where there were traps, it would be irresponsible not to train her to avoid them.

         This is no different than a stock dog being kicked by a cow, so that it learns how to herd properly.

         These are kind of remote corrections.

         
         
       • on December 8, 2010 at 9:13 pm retrieverman

         It’s no different than training a dog to avoid the nick from an invisible fence.

         
         
       • on December 8, 2010 at 9:18 pm retrieverman

         http://workinglacys.wordpress.com/2008/12/08/trap-line-lacys/

         
         
6. on December 8, 2010 at 7:52 pm Patti

   Retrieverman wrote: “Cars kill and maim more dogs than traps do, so why aren’t we making the case that we should ban cars to keep dogs from being hurt?”

   Well, how about starting by regulating careless driving on limited traffic wildlife parklands? A dog that I bred was killed while running in an off-lead area of a state park when a careless park ranger sped down a trail, turned a blind corner and hit him. The dog was killed, but not instantly.

   I would like to see some common sense displayed by everyone — an awareness of the risk to others that might be using the same space that you are, a bit of IMAGINATION about what might happen if you make a bad choice. And being informed about what to do if your dog does encounter danger – trap, snakebite, whatever.

   
   
7. on December 9, 2010 at 9:31 am Lane Batot

   My GOD, where to begin? First, this video is such LAUGHABLE propaganda that I would like to offer for sale a bridge I have in London, to any of you who believe all the premises in it!!! OF COURSE they are only going to have the least traumatic episodes to illustrate their position–I get real aggravated when they are willing to LIE to present it, though–but that IS what propaganda IS–LIES!!! Sorry narrator-woman, this subject IS debatable, them’s just the facts!!!! Once again, the question isn’t “is it cruel?”, but should be “is it ever really necessary?”–it should be OBVIOUS restraining any wild animal with a trap that clamps on it’s foot IS CRUEL!!!! Rubberized jaws don’t help that much(an illustration you might relate to better–slam your hand in a doorway–ouch!–then line the doorway with thin layers of rubber and slam it in them again and compare. Not a very great improvement, is it?)–they still don’t prevent the animal from struggling and breaking its leg or damaging tendons and ligaments. They don’t prevent the animal breaking it’s teeth trying to bite the trap off, and yes, sometimes animals still DO chew off their own foot to escape–THESE THINGS HAPPEN, even to the most conscientious and best of trappers–even to scientists trapping animals as carefully as they can for studies and relocation programs. How do I know?–Other than reading a lot about it from ALL points of view–and witnessing many trappers in action(not just in N. C., but incidents in Georgia, Texas, Tennessee, and Montana)–I was actually ON a study being done with wolves in Montana when efforts to relocate them were just beginning–and YES, you ARE correct, Retrieverman–leg traps are about the ONLY way to practically capture wary wolves for such a study–HOWEVER, the truth behind such projects is NOT so positive–wolves ARE injured–sometimes so severely they must be put down–everyone is sad about it, and it surely isn’t made generally known, but it happens all the time–ditto for ANY other study using these traps! There is ALWAYS a certain amount of “accidental death” involved. What REALLY irks me, regarding such studies AND recreational and economical trapping, is the “trash”(i. e. non-target animals) that are caught and disposed of–steel jaw traps are NOT selective, no matter what dishonest propaganda the trappers will come up with to try and convince the public otherwise. Bait or scent designed for one animal still attracts many other animals, “blind” sets set for one animal regularly catches other species and they are rarely “released unharmed”! Most trappers couldn’t be bothered with trying–besides, killing the unwanted animal keeps it from getting caught and messing up the set again–and individual animals WILL get caught again and again–happens all the time! Unless you kill them and clean the area out. On the wolf study I participated in in Montana and up into Alberta, coyotes and foxes were regularly caught in the wolf traps–virtually always broke their legs(those wolf traps were HUGE, and yes, they had teeth–the people I was with said smooth-jawed and rubber-jawed traps allowed the wolves to pull out too easily–not something they would willingly tell the public, of course!),and so they were killed, as no time or money could be spent tending a bunch of crippled coyotes and foxes(and there were a LOT of them!). Was it NECESASARY? Perhaps, in the efforts to study and restore the wolves as a species. Was it “cruel”?–hell yeah, no doubt about it! Most researchers HATE to use the things–they only do it because they have(in some cases), no viable alternative….to be continued….

   
   
   • on December 9, 2010 at 9:44 am retrieverman

     They aren’t using wolf traps. They are using fox traps.

     I actually am willing to sacrifice a few foxes to save the wolves if that is the case.

     
     
   • on December 9, 2010 at 9:51 am retrieverman

     You know in the decades my grandpa trapped, he never had a fox chew its foot off.

     They might get a cut once in a while, and if a dog got caught, the injuries were virtually nonexistent. Dogs walked away from being trapped unscathed and nonplussed, though not happy to be trapped.

     His favorite dog, when caught in a trap once, would run 10 feet off a trail to avoid the trap.

     Animal can get injured in traps, just as you can gut shoot a deer and have it die of sepsis.

     I have no problem with ethical, legal trapping .

     That video was put out in response to even more blatant propaganda on the other side.

     You have not addressed my question about David Mech, who is an avid wolf advocate and a trapper.

     Do you seriously think he would engage in a practice that is blatantly cruel?

     
     
8. on December 9, 2010 at 10:07 am Lane Batot

   …and all this blather about “improvements” in “modern” traps–I think I illustrated that with the so-called rubber padded traps(only slightly better in preventing serious injury)–but I personally know of trappers that pry the padded part off, because they don’t hold quite as well either! I know trappers that file teeth into smooth jaws on traps, and weld nails onto jaws to make their own “teeth”! Thing is, in the best-of-all-possible-worlds, Dr. Pangloss(please excuse me, but I LOVE this satirical phrase used throughout the French classic “Candide”!), IF people were responsible and really did check traps regularly and carefully released “trash” animals(the term for non-target animals sorta gives away what trappere REALLY feel about them….), and despite the FACT that serious debilitating injuries STILL DO OCCUR to even the most conscientious– well maybe trapping sorta wouldn’t be so bad. But THAT IS NOT the reality! Laws involving trapping are very hard to enforce–most trappers I have known never even bothered with a liscence. Most are very slack about checking their traps–the very nature of a good-sized trapline makes it impractical or impossible to check every 24 hours. I have yet to meet a trapper trapping for sport or money who was concerned in the slightest about animal comfort or pain–that would just be sissified! The very nature of the activity doesn’t exactly attract the types who “care deeply” about animals! How absurd! Sure, they may enjoy nature in a sense, and they certainly learn more about REAL animal habits and life-and-death than people whining and wringing their hands about it in an urban environment, but in no way, shape or form is it beneficial to wildlife–individually or species-wise–other than the studies and reintroductions mentioned. Ecomomic trapping has severly depleted populations in the past–wolves, otters, and others were wiped out in a large part BECAUSE of trapping–beavers(hard to believe it these days!) were almost totally wiped out in this country because of fur trapping! Ditto for Lynx, marten, fisher, wolverine(still SEVERELY endangered in the lower 48–mainly because of getting caught in traps set for other animals–a “non-target” species!) and on and on–maybe Red Foxes and certainly muskrats can take a good bit of trapping pressure–even raccoons were severly depleted during the “roaring 20’s”–Why? The demand by fashion for raccoon skin coats! This is HISTORY–trapping is NOT much of a threat to species now(other than the afore-mentioned wolverine) only because hardly anyone is doing it anymore! NOT because it is “beneficial to wildlife”! As for people getting back to nature, connecting with wildlife and learning to respect and appreciate them–there are certainly other, more humane ways of doing it other than setting cruel leg traps! I would LOVE to get more in touch with the Native American past, and would enjoy very much stealing horses and counting coup. I’d love to burn out and drive back the tide of civilization and let the woods grow back and the big game return to the many territories I have been usurped from by “progress”–but that kind of connecting with your past and history just ain’t allowed(sigh) anymore–I just have to accept that as impractical. Setting steel jaw traps in areas full of domestic animals, kids, and other non-target species just for fun, or a some ecomomic gain, is also no longer practical–and it has ALWAYS been cruel…..to be continued….

   
   
   • on December 9, 2010 at 10:24 am retrieverman

     This is a problem that should be raised at state and regional trapper’s organizations. Those things are not ethical.

     I disagree that it’s always been cruel.

     The technology is getting better all the time. Trappers known fully well what their PR problem is, so the manufacturers are doing what they can to meet this demand.

     These traps are designed to hold. Not cut or torture.

     Hold.

     They take one hold and that’s it. Some longspring traps did (and maybe still do) continue to tighten down on the foot. Those are cruel.

     When I’ve heard of people filing down a trap, it is normally to file down a cutting edge that didn’t get blunted when the trap was cast.

     The only studies I found on injury have been that a large number of coyotes get injured in non-padded traps. It was something like half. Foxes and dogs normally do not.

     
     
   • on December 9, 2010 at 10:29 am retrieverman

     Lane,

     What is the number 1 killer of wolves in the wild (at least in North America)?

     
     
9. on December 9, 2010 at 10:48 am Lane Batot

   ….David Mech is no angel in the animal world–I know people involved in wolf research that hate him! I have not met him personally, though I do have a very nice letter he wrote me once, long ago in response to work available(or NOT!) in wolf research. I know trappers who LOVE their dogs and other pets–they would beat the pudding out of anyone that did to their pets or hunting dogs what they do to wild animals for sport or a few bucks–I reckon Dave Mech is somewhere in this category. A VERY common contradiction in this world! Dave probably has little sympathy for mink as individuals(“bloodthirsty little savage killers” IS how most people view them–I have watched mink unobserved myself for hours, and have found them to be fun-loving, inquisitive, beautiful and appealing little critters–NOT something I want to watch writhing in a trap to be killed so some rich city woman can have a sinfully expensive fur coat to show-off their economic superiority to us country peasants–someone who probably doesn’t even know what a real live mink looks like–or cares!), and has not thought too deeply about the minks’ point of view. But, of course, you’d have to ask him: I don’t know. I DO know that I don’t care if Mother Teresa takes up mink trapping for recreation, I would still dissaprove of THAT one aspect of her otherwise saintly life! And I do not wish to be dispairing of yer Granpa–many of my OWN relatives have been trappers–it was known by all of them NOT to let ME know about it as a kid–I’d steal and destroy every trap of theirs'(and yes, I got in a lot of trouble for doing it! Didn’t stop me, though….) I could get my hands on, even then! But I loved these relatives even so, and they were still good people despite this(in my eyes) foible. So, you can see I’ve been involved out-the-wazoo with this issue all my life! Sounds like yer Granpa was one-a-them rare conscientious types(cruel though trapping still is even then), and you DO rarely see paws gnawed-off if you do check traps every 24 hours. The percentage goes up if animals have been left in traps for DAYS, though…. But back to this RIDICULOUSLY deceiving video….one really stupid premise it makes is that some animals just sit there, and restraining an animal with a trap is no different than using a leash to restrain a dog! Yeah, I’d like to see anyone purposefully use a leg trap(large enough and strong enough to hold them)to restrain their beloved dog! Can you imagine a wild animal holding still on a leash????? They’d likely strangle themselves for sure trying to get away!–Oh wait, that’s what a SNARE is–although a snare that strangles an animal quickly(why? BECAUSE THEY STRUGGLE TO GET AWAY!!!) is somewhat more humane than a leg trap–still purty cruel, though. I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANY TRAPPED ANIMAL(and keep in mind I have seen probably hundreds) “just sit there” after it is trapped–anyone who can swallow that bit of propaganda doesn’t know animals very well! Every trap site I’ve seen(and usually raided) was very torn up with whatever critter was there, in it’s attempts to escape. I HAVE seen many of those animals lying quietly as I approached, but it certainly wasn’t because they were “calm” or “accepting”–it was because they were exhausted or in shock from struggling all night(or for days), and/or because they heard/smelled/saw me approaching, and were hunkered down hoping to avoid detection–since, of course, they knew they couldn’t escape since they had been struggling for hours to do so, without success. You know, most of this is incredibly elementary common sense if you REALLY have experience and knowledge of animals, but the trapper propagandists are betting on the urban humaniacs not knowing any better since they have so little actual experience with critters in the wild–BOTH sides apall me regularly with their ridiculous propaganda and political posturing. But no foolin’ me regarding trapping–I’ve been around all aspects of it all my life; my opinions are based(and set in stone) on personal experiences and observations. The question AGAIN–NOT is it cruel(it ALWAYS is!), but IS IT NECESSARY?

   
   
   • on December 9, 2010 at 10:52 am retrieverman

     The reason why they hate Mech is that he is for managing wolves just like any other species.

     
     
   • on December 9, 2010 at 11:33 am retrieverman

     Remember, these are wild animals. Tney will do the same if they are caught in a cage trap. I have seen it in raccoons. They struggle and are stressed, but it’s not major.

     They struggle because they are confined, not because of excruciating pain. Of course, if someone is using a poorly designed trap or just leaves it for a week, yes, they are going to be in pain.

     Coyotes really do injure themselves a lot in non-padded traps, but foxes typically do not– if the trap is designed properly. Dogs typically aren’t injured in fox traps either.

     The only reason why this stuff isn’t necessary as it once was is because fur prices are quite low. No one is making vast sums of money trapping. It is mostly recreational.

     I’ve been around it all my life, too. I know plenty of trappers. I would hardly call them sadists or people who don’t care about animal suffering.

     
     
10. on December 9, 2010 at 10:59 am Lane Batot

    ….WOLVES(after human related causes) kill more wolves than anything else–and it’s usually over with in minutes! They do not struggle for hours or days(unless they are wounded and escape to die a slow death by infection, etc., which does happen), but this is NECESSARY in the wolf’s world, to eliminate competition–but it is still cruel. All death is cruel, of course(some moreso than others–like thrashing around in a leg trap for hours or days!)–but for wealthy peoples’ fashion statements? For “sport”? Sorry, not necessary in my opinion….. And if all these traps did was HOLD an animal, they WOULD NOT WORK–animals would pull free in seconds–these traps MUST clamp down(and STRONGLY in relation to the size of the animal they are designed to hold), and it HURTS! Pad a bear trap all you want, then stick yer foot in it and tell me it doesn’t hurt! If the padding is such you can pull free, then it doesn’t count, of course!

    
    
    • on December 9, 2010 at 11:20 am retrieverman

      I saw a documentary about a pack of wolves in Yellowstone– one of those megapacks with multiple breeding females.

      One of the females was killed off by her packmates. It took days for her to die. I believe the park official put her out of her misery.

      
      
11. on December 9, 2010 at 11:11 am Lane Batot

    ….and much as I love wolves, I still feel ranchers and farmers have a right to protect their stock(by targeting the wolves that are actually doing the damage)–although I can’t say I approve of sport hunting wolves–it WILL improve the species’ liklihood of being tolerated(hunting, IF done ethically, involves killing as quickly and cleanly as possible, any ethical hunter would be apalled if some animal they shot thrashed about wounded for even 5 minutes, much less hours or days! Of course there ARE plenty of slob hunters, too–I despise that element as well–but most hunters I know don’t like jaw traps either!) IF it can be controlled as well as for other big game animals. The problem with wolves is how emotional and polar-opposite peoples’ human-oriented attitudes are towards them; it is very hard for anyone(myself included!) to be completely practical and unbiased towards wolves! But trapping them for fun or for fur? Just don’t tell ME where those traps are, or they won’t be there long! And wolf-sized traps ARE expensive as heck!

    
    
    • on December 9, 2010 at 11:27 am retrieverman

      Well, the thing about being hard to be objective about wolves is probably in our DNA. To hate wolves is psychological way of accepting civilization. Worshiping wolves is a way of longing for our hunter-gatherer past, when we mimicked wolves to become the superior predators we are.

      I struggle with being objective about them. I admit this, but that doesn’t mean I don’t want to be.

      
      
12. on December 9, 2010 at 11:25 am Lane Batot

    ….and yes, cars DO kill a lot more animals than trapping EVER does these days, BUT(except in a few rare sicko cases) IT IS NOT DONE ON PURPOSE FOR SPORT OR FASHION!!!!! Gosh, HUGE difference in morality there, in my eyes…..And since cars DO kill so much wildlife, well, no need for the piddling amount trappers do any more for “population control”, is there? Despite all my carrying-on here, I STILL would not OUTLAW FOR EVERYONE FOR ALL TIME the usage of jaw traps. What I DO hope to see is less and less appeal to the general public in an activity that is cruel and stressful and mostly unecessary, simply as a pasttime–and, well, I am seeing that! It has been years since I have found a single set in the forests and streams where I live(and they used to be common!), much less having to wipe out entire extensive traplines(which I HAVE also done–nothing worse for a trapper than having some !@#$%^&*()(*&^%$#@! two-legged trapwise wolverine raiding their traps! Now THAT’S SPORT! A DANGEROUS sport at times–I HAVE been shot at more than once indulging in this recreation of mine in the past! Not recommended for the faint of heart! Good, strong running ability and thourough knowledge of the territory mandatory!)–and as I said, one outdoor “recreation” I’ll personally be glad to see virtually dissapear…..

    
    
13. on December 9, 2010 at 11:30 am Peggy Richter

    I guess it depends on what one considers cruel or “inhumane”. In watching numerous videos from Nat Geo and others on non human predators (lions, dholes, foxes, eagles, killer whales, dolphins, chimps, etc), I’ve yet to note that any of them were particularly concerned about their prey’s “feelings”. Or how much time it took for their prey to die. Their concern was “don’t get hurt” and “succeed at the minimum cost of energy & risk”. Only human beings seem to be concerned about the animals they have control over. That’s a good thing, but one does have to take care not to take it to extreme.

    As for “necessary”, Shakespeare said it well. ,” reason not the need: our basest beggars Are in the poorest thing superfluous: Allow not nature more than nature needs, Man’s life’s as cheap as beast’s. King Lear, 2. 4”

    We don’t “NEED” cars, houses, clothes, vaccines – yes, fur is not “NECESSARY” as a form of clothing (it was once). It is still a perfectly legitimate form of clothing. Arguing that it isn’t “necessary” and therefore should be banned – well, again, where does one stop with that? (and by the way, there’s clear evidence that Amerindians radically modified the ecosystem of the Americas, so any argument about “pristine” environment has to be BEFORE any humans, not just “post Columbus”). We “COULD” if we wanted, live like chimps – but then chimps aren’t particular about the feelings of the monkeys they kill or even the ‘outside the troop” other chimps they kill. Humans can indulge in such feelings BECAUSE we have a technology that allows it, not in spite of that technology.

    No, I don’t use leghold traps. I’ve used a havahart to catch (and yep, dispatch) bobcats that got after my ducks (killed 10 of them). I don’t think the bobcat cared one bit that I used a havahart vice a leghold. It was dead afterwards, just the same, and I don’t presume to believe that it felt any less “trapped” in the havahart vice a leghold.

    I’m sure that there are plenty of “trappers” who don’t follow the rules or even the law. There’s plenty of people in my area who don’t follow the leash laws either (had a “FUN” experience just the other day when one of these free roaming dogs charged my flock on the road. CA is, by the way, an “open range” state). I warned the owner that next time I’d be packing a gun (yes in CA one can shoot any dog after one’s livestock). Now that same dog could have been out on the highway, fallen down a mine shaft (where I live is an old mining district) or sinkhole, been bitten by a sidewinder rattler, gotten into cholla cactus or met up with a feral horse (there have been such attacks in my area) or a coyote that didn’t like it. Old leghold traps are the least of that dog’s potential risks.

    My point is that people break laws. That’s not a justification for going after those who abide by them. If the only things one tolerates are those things that one personally “approves”, then ultimately, there is no freedom at all – because sooner or later someone is going to object to those things that “you” approve and get those things banned. If there are trappers who don’t follow the rules, by all means, go after them. But don’t use those that don’t follow the rules as a reason to condemn those that do follow the rules. If what a trapper does is not worse than what a komodo dragon does, objections are really based on “feelings” not any real issue regardng the prey animal’s method of death.

    Peggy Richter

    
    
14. on December 9, 2010 at 12:43 pm Lane Batot

    Ha! Peggy, I guarantee you you would notice the difference if I caught YOU in a (human-sized) steel-jawed bear trap, or in a box or cage where you had to sit and wait out the last hours of your life! A Komodo dragon hunts and kills the way it does, as do virtually ALL other animal predators, because they have no choice but to do so, and it is to EAT and survive. “Recreational trapping” is hardly survival activity, and yes, we humans can do without a LOT of STUFF that we certainly don’t need for survival. Nothing wrong with some stuff, of course, but, because we DO have a choice, we really ought to at least TRY to think things through, not make up a bunch of inaccurate propaganda as depicted on this pro-trapping video to try and justify something(or pull the wool over the publics’eyes) that IS cruel AND unecessary. If someone is going to get involved in trapping, then they need to accept the inevitable cruelty that goes along with it, and not try to paint it into something else to deceive the public and even themselves–if people spout propaganda long enough, they usually come to believe themselves as well! “Four legs good, two-legs BETTER!” Everyone purty much accepts now that dogfighting is a cruel, uneccessary, pasttime that should not be allowed–but at one time it was mainstream, and I’m sure died-in-the-wool dogfighters in those days squealed like stuck pigs over their “freedom” when it finally got outlawed! Unless you have seen the suffering and injuries and waste of living creatures that I have, you have no concept of just how bad trapping with leg traps in this country can be. Although where YOU live, Peggy Richter, YOUR dogs might be unlikely to get caught, I bet if it does happen to you one day–although I sincerely hope not–(you are out walking your dog; it runs after something, doesn’t come when you call, you spend hours searching to no avail, continue searching for days. finally hearing a pitiful whine from your best buddy miles further than you imagined it had gone, investigate and find it barely alive in a leg-hold trap, and have to have the leg amputated due to gangrene–all this happened to my neighbor’s beagle–, then you find out such incidents are not that uncommon, and more often the dog doesn’t survive, or was callously killed by the trapper mad at the dog for ruining his set–and not wanting to risk getting bit getting it out)–all this for someone’s “recreation”, I bet you would come to a different conclusion, and be glad to see the end of such devises in the general publics’ incompetent hands once-and-for-all too…..

    
    
15. on December 9, 2010 at 3:36 pm Lane Batot

    ….and, Retrieverman, I must confess I broke down and bought that “documentary” you showed a clip from awhile back–thanks for that!–“The Last Trapper”, or in French(it is a French film) “Le Dernier Trappeur”–steep as the price was for me–I got a used copy for just under $20 bux–I found it worthwhile, and I’ll watch and enjoy it again and again. (My copy came from Montreal–took a bit longer in the mail, but only added to the “atmosphere” of the purchase! My copy was 2 discs–containing both French and English versions, and another of how the film was made. Though mostly contrived, it WAS of a real trapper, and I’m sure he’d had plenty of adventures and experiences similar to what was portrayed….). Now, after all my blathering about being against using jaw traps, some of you guys are probably wondering how I could enjoy such a film!! Well, I enjoy all the aspects EXCEPT the trapping. I feel sorry for the guy losing his livlihood(although I do not buy for a second his premise that trappers are needed to monitor and control animal populations for their own good–more human excuses to try and justify their activity!), I DO admire his closeness and lifestyle with his sled dogs and Nature–he just needs to find another way to support himself! I even considered such a lifestyle many years ago(an aquaintance of mine who was a trapper who DID go to Alaska and try to make a living this way, and suggested I do the same!)– I could never divorce my dislike of trapping for fur enough to even begin to consider it, though. I’ve found plenty of other ways to enjoy and get close to Nature and wildlife without clamping traps on their legs and killing them for economical support!I do not rabidly hate trappers–I actually like a lot that I have known very much, and enjoyed talking with them way more about animals than overly citified folk that don’t have a clue–I just disagree with them on the one thing–using jaw traps to catch fur for the fur industry!(or for recreational purposes). Trappers DO tend to know a LOT about animals…..Another aspect of this involves “ranching” for fur–you guys might also be suprised that I actually would prefer animals get trapped in the wild than those damn ranches! On the ranches, mink, foxes, and others live in small cages for short lives and are then electrocuted for their fur–miserable, confined, short lives–all for “fashion”! At least wild animal trapping allows the animals to live naturally until they are caught, even if their deaths are more prolonged and involve more suffering, But of course, I’d rather there not be either!…..

    
    
    • on December 9, 2010 at 5:34 pm retrieverman

      Yeah. He could always get a job as a baby seal clubber.

      
      
16. on December 9, 2010 at 4:45 pm Peggy Richter

    Laura wrote: Peggy, I guarantee you you would notice the difference if I caught YOU in a (human-sized) steel-jawed bear trap, or in a box or cage where you had to sit and wait out the last hours of your life!
    — as opposed to being trapped in a house damaged by an earthquake? I don’t think so. Or crushed and trapped in a burning car? Or being denied the option of suicide while dying of cancer (had a relative went through that). That was sure “humane”. I don’t think the deer care if they are eaten alive (wolves, natural predation) or if they die of sepsis due to an injury (nature) or if they die because they got caught in a “steel jawed bear trap”.
    Yes, trapping is “recreational” — unless you happen to make your living by trapping. Then it isn’t. Hunting is recreational — for most Americans (but not all) but pretty much a necessity for some peoples in the world. You state “ALL other animal predators, because they have no choice but to do so, and it is to EAT and survive” Are you presuming that if humans ceased eating we would still survive? That our existence on this planet can occur without impact on other living things? You state “Nothing wrong with some stuff” – just not the “stuff” you don’t like???
    By the way, I’ve dealt with sheep with gangrene –caused by neighbor’s “free roaming” dogs. I’m sure these folk didn’t think twice about that sheep. I’m equally sure the sheep didn’t care that it’s injury was caused by a dog rather than barb wire, or a human device. I would not advocate banning dogs simply because some morons think that if they live in a rural area their dogs can roam “free”. OTOH, I have no guilt if I happened to shoot such a dog. If that dog then dies of gangrene, it’s simply because I failed to kill it directly.

    Laura: “are out walking your dog; it runs after something, doesn’t come when you call, you spend hours searching to no avail, continue searching for days. finally hearing a pitiful whine from your best buddy miles further than you imagined it had gone” — which is different from HIT BY CAR in what way? Any time your dog fails to come when called, it is YOUR fault (and yes, I’ve had it happen). Blaming others because it runs into a hazard is a non sequitur. Would you have “felt” better if the beagle had had it’s pelvis crushed by a car? Or if it had encountered a mountain lion? (they are in my area). Aren’t you “accepting” the carnage created every day by cars that hit animals, both wild and domestic (not to mention people). Do you “accept” that driving a car is therefore inherently Cruel? How dare those Honda dealers imply that a car is environmentally safe or fun to drive?…….
    Sounds absurd? But it is simply applying the same thought process to cars as you are applying to trapping. It’s just a lot easier to advocate the loathing of trappers than to advocate the loathing of every individual who uses a vehicle more sophisticated than a bicycle for transportation.
    Peggy Richter.

    
    
17. on December 10, 2010 at 1:05 pm Lane Batot

    Peggy Richter, either you haven’t read my responses very carefully, or they had not yet been posted before you responded–perhaps you should go back and reread them carefully. Because you didn’t even get my name right makes me think you are not reading very carefully–but I will try and answer(re-answer) some of these comments…..You must not have had much experience with PAIN to not seem to realize this is what this issue is all about. Sitting in a cage/box trap is NOTHING like being an earthquake victim, or being CRUSHED in a car accident–cage traps aren’t designed to crush animals! Jaw traps DO cause considerable pain to the animal, despite this deceitful trapping video trying to convince you otherwise. I KNOW because I have lots of ACTUAL EXPERIENCE getting lots of animals out of the damn contraptions, and I have seen the damage done firsthand, again and again and again. You have to realize that the scenes in this video are very carefully edited to make it look like the animals are just sitting there quietly not struggling. Look at every clip CAREFULLY–you’ll notice the ground torn up around every trap site–this would not be the case if the animals had just sat peacefully all night accepting their fate. It is a baldfaced lie to say those traps don’t hurt–don’t take MY word for it–go get any type of leg trap they show in this video–set it and stick yer finger in it and tell me it doesn’t hurt! Leave it clamped on your fingers for HOURS(in the case of the many slob trappers out there–DAYS) and try to tell me through your clenched teeth that your circulation isn’t cut off! Do you see the big sets of springs on those traps? That’s what causes the trap to slam shut, and clamp TIGHTLY on anything caught between them–if it just held the animal loosely, they’d pull out in seconds! Even though these traps, designed for smaller animals like foxes and racoons will cause you pain if you stick any of your appendages in them, to REALLY get an idea what these animals are going thru, then you need to get a larger trap that would be used on an animal the size of a human–one of the larger wolf traps, or a bear trap would do nicely. Sometimes trappers accidentally get caught in their own traps while setting them(or maybe when someone moves the trap so that the trapper steps in it when he comes to check his traps! Ahem!) They SCREAM in pain when this happens–I’d like to get THAT on video, and speak in a nice soft voice, telling the public that “these traps cause no pain, that that is a fact and it is not debatable!” while the trapper thrashes and squeals in the background!…. The difference between cars hitting animals and animals getting in traps is the cars are NOT DOING IT ON PURPOSE–and most people avoid hitting critters if they can. How can you compare accidental deaths/injuries with someone purposefully causing such suffering just for recreation? The VERY TINY FEW that actually make a living doing it–they can get another job! Reminds me of the story of the Nazi concentration camp guard defending his position by saying he supported his family with that job! And regarding dogs getting caught–Peggy, hunting dogs ain’t much use on a leash–they have to run free to do their job. People hiking with their dogs have their dogs caught in traps all the time(I have had to get several of my own dogs out of traps over the years. They were not running loose without supervision irresponsibly. And though domesticated and used to restraint like a leash–which this stupid video compares being in a leg trap too!!!– the dogs yelped and screamed and struggled and showed every evidence of being in considerable pain! Limping afterward, in some cases, even though I was right there and had them out in a matter of seconds!)–so I’m not talking about unsupervised dogs allowed to irresponsibly roam at will here. And involving hunting–back to the pain issue again–all ethical hunters strive to kill quickly and cleanly. They are present during the process and can decide to pull a trigger(shoot a bow) or not–some discretion shown in picking the target, in other words(although yes, plenty of unethical hunters out there too–I am against slob hunters as well) they aren’t killing/maiming anything other than the targeted game. Traps are unsupervised, and regularly catch and maim all manner of animals the trapper is not even after, so everyone and everything in an area being used by a trapper is at risk for his recreation….How can you not see how much more humane instant or very quick death done in hunting is to suffering for hours or days, as is accepted in trapping? What part of extended, prolonged PAIN and stress are you not getting? I am not against ethical hunting, nor do I loathe trappers–see above comments. I am simply against using leg traps for recreation or a form of making money to support the unecessary fur trade, whose products are manufactured for the sole purpose of wealthy people to have a status symbol and mince about showing off the scalps of animals that I happen to admire and respect and think deserve a better fate than that……

    
    
18. on December 10, 2010 at 1:26 pm Lane Batot

    …and getting back to the use of leg traps in animal studies that this video really touts–they are still being very deceitful! Yes, leg traps ARE used in animal studies, but it IS NOT because they find them perfectly acceptable, but because they have no other practical choice! A HUGE difference in how that is presented! Every person I’ve talked to or been around involving such studies HATES the fact that they need to use these traps, and wishes they didn’t–if they find a better alternative, they quickly switch to it–I just finished a great book about wolverines, “The Wolverine Way”(available on Amazon) by Doug Chadwick–highly recommended–a species mentioned in this video as benefitted from studies using leg hold traps. In his book, Doug Chadwick purty blatantly says how unfortunetely injured and damaged study wolverines were by PADDED JAW TRAPS, and how they were able to switch to hand-made log box traps with much more satisfactory results. Another FACT(not debatable!!!) is that wolverine recovery in the U. S. is mainly hampered by wolverines being caught and killed in traps set for other animals by “recreational” trappers–so much for leg traps being above debate, and helping wildlife to “roam free”……

    
    
19. on December 10, 2010 at 3:45 pm HDP

    Peggy are your Belgians the type with the long pretty carmel sable coats or the type with the beautiful shiny black coats?

    How would you feel, what would you think, about someone buying dogs of your breed to make and market fur coats out of them?

    Wild animals are owned, jointly, by the public. I don’t like the idea of my co-owned wild animals suffering in leg traps.

    If one of my co-owned wild animals has to die, I want it to die with as little fear and pain as is possible.

    
    
20. on December 11, 2010 at 11:53 am Lane Batot

    ….much as I obviously dislike steel jaw traps, I must admit that this video IS amusing in the sense that whatever trapper organization put it together, they are using the same B. S. propaganda tactics that the Animal Rights Humaniacs use in their videos! In regards to propaganda, here’s a quote you should appreciate, Retrieverman,–Farley Mowat, in his book “The Siberians”(about his tour in Russia/Siberia many years ago during the Cold War) asked his Russian guide what he thought about all the Russian propaganda eveywhere, and his Russian guide replied, oh so well–(and this is paraphrased)–“The difference between propaganda in Russia and your country is–you BELIEVE yours!”

    
    
21. on December 11, 2010 at 11:58 am Lane Batot

    ….And that’s funny HDP–reminds me of some years ago, these cute fuzzy littl animal toys were being sold in gift shops all over the U. S.–they were in the zoo gift shop where I was working at the time–and they were manufactured in China–OBVIOUSLY made from some kind of real fur. Turns out, they were made from dog and cat fur!!! When this got out, everyone in the U. S. had a hissy fit, and sales plummetted and they quickly dissapearred–the Chinese found our reactions amusing…….

    
    

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