Dave has been in Finland all summer.
While over there, he went to a laika event, and impressed with the dogs, he decided he needed a West Siberian laika.
The only problem is there are very few, if any, of these dogs in Canada.
But there are some in the United States– mostly in Appalachia and the Deep South.
It turns out there is a breeder of West Siberians in Kentucky just west of the West Virginia border.
And through some logistical jujitsu, I was asked to pick up a puppy for him.
I drove to Charleston last night to meet the breeder, and now, if everything goes to plan, Dave should have his little “Pavel” by Wednesday.
He’s quite an interesting dog.
He acts nothing like a Siberian husky.
He pays very close attention to my voice, and he looks me in the eye to ask for direction.
He also can’t stand for me to leave him alone. If I go into another room, he starts whining.
And I got him to do some retrieves this morning– which totally blew my mind!
I know that the Russians do breed these dogs to retrieve, but it’s mostly hit or miss.
I didn’t push him beyond four or five retrieves, so it may have only been a fluke.
I had heard of this breed before but just did a little checking on it after you posted this. Impressive! This dog has a hunting dog history, not sled dog, and is noted for its tight bond with master and determination to protect him while on the hunt. Also not good with other dogs. Not for the big city dog park clearly.
Very beautiful dog IMO. Makes me think of a husky/chinook cross.
From your description of his behavior, he sounds a lot like a good German Shepherd puppy :-). Some of the dogs that were used in developing the GSD were laika types, very similar to this alert-looking little guy.
He was actually born in Pike County, Kentucky.
He is half-sibling to Brad Anderson’s young bitch named “Anya”, which the owner hopes to use Anya and “Ike” for a bear-shepherding program in his area.
Congrats on the new pup Dave! He looks great! Anya is a wonderful pup, I think you will be very pleased with Pavel.
I’m really impressed with him. He’s really smart.
The first I read about this breed was in a former Soviet magazine called Sputnik. Being a propaganda magazine patterned after Readers Digest, but much better in content, it used to be available in Pakistan at few pennies back in the 70s. It used to be so cheap to buy that I could get it from few coins that my mom used to give me to buy candies. I had first picked that magazine after I casually flipped pages and found an article on a Soviet Dog Show and the increasing popularity of dogs there.
This seems to be an excellent dog breed for a person like me who does lot of hiking in the black bear country.
Thanks for sharing.
This dog’s dad’s ancestors all have bear and/or boar certificates in Russia.
I’ve never heard of this breed. He’s a cutie.
At one time I was interested in getting a Finnish Spitz. The two breeds do look similar, except for colouring. Are they the same or related? any idea?
According to a genetic-sequencing, out of 50-some sampled breeds, Finnish Spitz are most closely related to Samoyed.
Also, they share the same wolf-haplotype as Siberian Laikas, Reindeer Herding Dogs and Elkhounds.
Check the data behind the paper found within this link for haplotype distribution (Laikas are included): http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2010/07/09/wolf-hybridization-in-scandinavian-and-finnish-spitz-type-dogs/
Genetic comparative between breeds: http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2011/10/18/new-genome-wide-study-sheds-light-on-dog-breed-relationships/
He’s going to be larger than a Finnish spitz.
Here’s an adult baying a raccoon:
Thanks Dave and Scottie.
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Congrats Dave! He sure looks like a cutie! I’ve never heard of the breed before, so I’m going to be doing some reading tonight! XD
Try Vladimir Beregovovy’s book(s). Excerpts of the dog-breed book can be found on his website:
http://www.laikabreeds.com/content/
One of Gary Varney’s pups, maybe?
Yep. I met Gary in Charleston last night.
A few coonhunters run laikas with their hounds nowadays.
Scottie, have you ever read “The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture” by Max von Stephanitz? Who was, as you know, the the primary developer of the breed. It’s available in hardcover (kinda pricey) in English translation and in the original German from Amazon, but it’s also available, fully illustrated, for Kindle., for cheap (bout 8 bucks). There is a treasure trove of photos of dogs from the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, and the book is worth the price for the photos alone. The text is often rambling & full of typos, at least in the kindle version, and the author was, of course, a product of his times, and shares much of the antiquated worldview of his era, but I found his descriptions of the peoples of various parts of Europe and Asia surprisingly even-handed, for the most part. He was a very shrewd observer not only of his beloved German Shepherd Dogs, but of all dogs. The book is very long and goes into great detail about the many various types of dogs that were used in the initial GSD gene pool (though of course the term gene was not known at that time – late 19th/early twentieth century). During the early years of the breed, it was quite common to hunt over GSDs, & their use by ordinary folks generally seems to have been comparable to that of a good, reliable farm laika.
What has this to do with Dave’s new dog, you may ask? Nothing much, except that Pavel reminds me of some of the Laikas shown in v. Stephanitz’s book. And it gives me an opportunity to rave about the photos. Many are dogs of breeds common today, such as Rottweillers and retrievers of various kinds… but they sure don’t look much like s, and the book is chock-full of them, with interesting insights as to what was known about different breeds’ uses and behaviors at the time.
I second that book recommendation. I have the hardcover text. It’s amazing how many breeds he DOES go through! Ties a lot of history together. The only reason I had to put it down not long after I got it this year is because I discovered I’m getting old; I finally need to get reading glasses, it seems. The font is very small. Guess it was the only way to fit in all the details even with all the pages! Essential to the collection of anyone who loves breed history.
Lovely pup. I look forward to seeing him grow up!
In light of recent posts and conversations, any idea how well they would stand up to N. American wolves?
On their own, probably not well.
One of the reasons why they are so biddable and close ranging is that if they were far ranging in Russia, the wolves would eat them.
Some of these dogs have a some relatively recent wolf blood– which is a whole controversy unto itself!
The only dogs that are confirmed to stand up to bears and wolves are livestock guardian dogs – Anatolians (In Turkish Kurdistan, their cousins the Kangals are used with spiked collars), Great Pyrs, Maremmas, Abkash, Polish Tatras, Hungarian Kuvaszok and Komondorok, etc. They are being increasingly used in the USA and Canada. In Ontario, we encourage their use via hefty government subsidies for the farmers.
In Europe they are being successfully used against wolves. Please see this video:
However, I am skeptical about comparing dog one on one against our North American Gray Wolf. I don’t think a single LGD is an effective solution against a single gray wolf. LGDs work in teams and they are trained to stay on the farmland never venturing too far out. On our average farms, they employ 2 – 4 LGDs max. These can easily be outmatched by an average sized pack of Gray Wolves. The defense is that LGDs can hold the fort for the duration that allows humans to appear on the scene. Wolves are intelligent animals and are not expected to get into a bloody confrontation to steal a meal.
I don’t think any dog in the world can survive in a wolf country if it ventures out. May be in bear country, but certainly not in wolf country.
Here’s a story (and photos) of a Turkish LGD that tried to protect a donkey from wolves. Looks as though she took a real beating.
Whoops: http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9427731/1/
Found the following which is worth the download and read:
The Sheep & Goat Research Journal
http://www.sheepusa.org/user_files/file_713.pdf
A Review: The Use of Livestock Protection Dogs in Association with Large Carnivores in the Rocky Mountains by C. Urbigkit 1, 2 & J. Urbigkit 2
(1 Acknowledgement: The Wyoming Wool Growers Association supported this literature review. M. Jimenez provided assistance with reviewing an earlier draft, as did B. Reece.
2 The authors are western Wyoming sheep producers. )
“Potential wolf-fighting breeds
Using the criteria described earlier, our review determined the list of breeds
with high potential to protect livestock herds in the Northern Rockies from
large carnivore predation include Central Asian Ovcharka, Transmontano
Mastiff, Karakachan, Kangal, and Shar Planinetz…It is recommended that range sheep producers in the Northern Rockies try using groups of two to five of these LPDs to protect each of their herds, with the objective of outnumbering and outweighing wolves or other large carnivores encountered. Individual dogs will have different behavioral and guarding tendencies, so developing the proper mix of traits into a group of LPDs may take time and readjustment of the animals involved.”
Somehow I missed reading this informative post.
Btw, observing some sage kuchis and ovcharkas at work back in the 90s made shivers run through my spines.
I’ve done some work with North American Wolves and seen them first hand. I dunno how anyone who has seen the first hand could think any dog breed would stand a chance against one. They are HUGE animals.
We own Caucasian Ovcharka for predator control, tho I only own one now, in the past we’ve had 5 at a time. I’ve witnessed them take our small groups of Coyote and feral dogs. They are impressively built for that type of work.
Our Ovcharka “Kodi” was kinda a “through-back” to the older working CO in type, he had really big teeth and a huge head: http://www.bradanderson.org/blog/2011/10/oh-my-what-big-teeth-you-have-kodi/
Kodi was impressive. I’ve never seen Ovtcharkas up close but I’ve looked up some things about them and wrote to a breeder somewhere in the west. I take these kinds of dogs quite seriously and I really hope the folks who are into trying their hand with the biggest mastiffy types, like Tosas, because they took a few behavior seminars and think they know it all, don’t catch onto these guys.
The guy who claimed to be so knowing, used the name Kibbles’n’cans as his email addy, because he was part of a local raw feeding group and wanted to crusade against dog food by feeding his dog openly in the park, on raw. He wanted a bunch of us to join in.
I started the list of cons by saying a huge crowd around dogs trying to eat, and bringing their OWN dogs, is asking for a lot of trouble. I thought it was self-explanatory but he seemed convinced he could single-handledly deal with crowd control…in Prospect Park Brooklyn! One of the most popular and POPULATED parks in NYC that attracts dogs owners. NYC. Um, population 10 – 12 MILLION???
Hubris is a dangerous thing.
That’s a stupid idea. lol
Holy! That is one impressive Canis Lupus Armageddonist.
I had read that bear-shepherding programs are being considered for my area, but I was not aware that it had gone beyond the research phase. Bears are becoming very numerous & I’m glad that these programs are moving forward.
I was working to get a group set up in Taos, NM as the black bear there are a growing issue. This is why I purchased Ike. However, now we have relocated to Flagstaff, AZ so my plans are on hold for a bit. BUT, when I was in Taos, Ike treed several black bear who should an abnormal amount of interest in me while I was hiking – Ike made quick work of it. I wish I had gotten some video of him doing his thing.
Pavel treed 4 squirrels this evening. 11 weeks old and is doing it just like an adult.
That would make Gary very happy to hear!
What a cutie. I just ran across an ad for w.s.liaka pups up here (Alaska) for what I thought was a reasonable price. I am not looking for a dog at the moment, but if I was I would be snapping one up. Everything I have read on them makes me think they would be a great loyal outdoor loving companion.
Congrats Dave. I was wondering if there was a relation to Brad’s Laika. I think there is also a (very fertile) female in California ;)
Don’t forget about Caucasian Ovcharka as a wolf deterant dog. They are extremely rugged and fierce with strange canines. I would love to have another if I no longer had Shibas, but my boy does a great job all by himself.
I was wondering about Ovcharkas or Šarplaninacs. Suhail didn’t list them but they seem to me to be a good bet, especially in multiples. As w/ boar, I suspect that at least for now, the best strategem is a combination of types. Still, the N. American and Russian lobos would seem to be fiercer and larger than most Old World wolves. A targeted breeding campaign, using some N. American wolf stock itself perhaps, may be needed to come up w/ LGD’s that’ll fill the bill.
Another likely looking LGD is the Bulgarian Karakachan.
(see: http://www.sheepmagazine.com/issues/31/31-2/karakachan_livestock_guardian_dogs.html)
Massugu,
Thank you for mentioning these great breeds. I am actually a great fan of LGDs from eastern European countries and central Asia (which imo extends to Western provinces of Pakistan). It is interesting to see how each nationality loves their very own dog breed. Caucasian and Central Asian Ovcharkas, Serbian Šarplaninacs, Bulgarian Karakachan, Romanian Mioritic, Bosnian Tornjak, Sage (pronounced Sugg-ay) Kuchi, Chitrali Vikhan, etc. are all great livestock and property guard dogs. However, I really don’t think that any of these dogs can single-handedly take on a healthy average gray wolf.
Going back to the Laika pup Pavel, I was wondering what is Dave expecting from this dog breed to do for him or is it just a pet / companion.
Reason? To hunt black bears; but if he kicks up a marten or a fisher-cat on a trapline, I would be happy. :)
Maybe spoor-tracking on a leash and some blood-tracking too. We will have to see what Pavel has to offer. And if he has retrieving or flushing instinct, we might take him duck-shooting or pheasant-shooting. :)
Although if the situation with the food prices look dire next year, we might be forced to eat Eastern Grey Squirrels, raccoons and Virginian Opossums. Ew.
I think I’ll skip the possums thanks, but corn-fed racoon is mighty fine eating.
I’ll skip the possum and raccoon, but I love a mess of pan-fried squirrel and gravy, and roast groundhog seasoned with spicebush is an old family favorite.
Squirrel gravy is divine.
I’ve never had groundhog. There is a cultural aversion to eating groundhog as you go north in West Virginia.
Never had squirrel, but my wife didn’t like it when she was a kid, so it ain’t comin’ into our kitchen. Racoon on the other hand, I’ve had. There’s a little town near Janesville, WI, name of Clinton. that used to have a coon roast every fall (beef for the faint of heart.) Harvesting coons up there is as easy as falling off a log, you just shine a light into your corncrib and shoot between the shiny spots. Plenty of whistle-pigs around here but that’s something I’d have to prepare outside over a fire–no way the wife would allow one inside her kitchen. Heck, she balks at venison, wild goose, rabbit (and even lamb). Its kinda strange since her dad & brothers used to bring home a wide range of game.
BTW: that gravy, is that Spice Bush as in Lindera benzoin, or Carolina Allspice (aka Sweetshrub) as in Calycanthus floridus? Both have aromatic leaves and as a forager, I’m always interested in recipes that incorporate native ingredients.
“To hunt black bears”
Did you ever consider Karelian Bear Dog breed for this purpose? Just wondering again.
Too nervous around people. Too dog-aggressive. Even the ones in Finland I have met are screwy in the head.
I got it.
Dave, congrats for the new pup.
I’ve experience about land-race laikas for few years. They hunt anything with four legs. As young, they catch easily hares and rabbits if let do. Retrieving demands training. They are genius and crazies to track moose and deer, and will bite their hind leg, if happen to get near. A Laika named Reino just drove a gorgerous white-tail deer to me when we were picking up blueberries. And when their are apart from their master, they WILL howl all day. The laika behaviour is organic, pure and simple, so wolf-like. Must confess my love for them sometimes more than my “human”, obsessed Retriever.
You’re definitely right that they do bond very strongly.
I really hated putting little Pavel in a cage this morning.
Dave met West Siberian laikas at a Laika Days event in Finland this summer.
I think the Caucasian Ovcharka is left out of the Sheep & Goat Research Journal’s article due to their natural (and rather high) human aggression – which is not something that’s acceptable in an open-range North American setting.
With all the good LGD mentions I really wish you had been witnessing and could have responded to, some real moron on one of my other dog forums local to NY, who professed himself to be some dog behaviorist but insisted that a Neopolitan mastiff could take on a North American grey wolf any day of the week! The misguided ego was illuminating off the page!
Laughable indeed.
Some morons also believe that a pit bull can take on a gray wolf. That claim is equally laughable to me.
A wolf’s wild nature, bite force and size of teeth is the deciding factor in my humble opinion.
Yes, but it’s true that true Laikas do better in the wolf areas than Retrievers or other spitzes. Usually the lone – wandering wolves are those 1-2-years-old pups, and it’s them that come to yards. If they meet a Laika there, they may have a second thought and not start a dog fight – or a supper.
Giraffe,
IMHO, 1-2 years old loan pups will never engage in a fight. they will flee.
A typical Neo would have a hard time not biting itself in an encounter w/ another canine. Some of the non-registered strains might stand a chance, but there’s a reason that old pics of mastiffs so often show them w/ spiked collars. Wolves have the benefit of being developed through the process of survival of the fittest, dogs haven’t.
Precisely!
And of course we are assuming if at all a wolf chooses to fight. Admittedly, my experiences are all anecdotal and more research and practicality inclined Scottie and Dave can advise us better. A wild wolf will rather run than fight a dog. Only if it is cornered, it will turn back and shred a Pit Bull or a Neo to pieces.
Also, I believe all dogs can show supreme confidence and aggression towards a wild wolf when its human(s) or other of its kind are around. When it comes to aggression, confidence of a dog is inversely proportional to the distance between its group and itself. A pit bull too will stop barking and start being submissive to a wolf when its master is not around.
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