Well, every year at this time there is a big dog show in New York.
And for the first several years of this blog, I would take this opportunity to make fun of it.
Then I’d call for some kind of reform, so we’re not putting of little weak-in-the-knees dogs, like Malachy that really are quite defective.
I’d get quite a few hits for a couple of days, but then it would trail off.
And then I’d find something more interesting to write about, which, I can tell, isn’t really that hard to do.
It was much more interesting to write about the BOB winners at Crufts being disqualified for failing their health standards– mainly because there was a kind of collective meltdown among certain dog breeders in the UK.
Which was absolutely hilarious.
But the only reason why there was any freak show around Crufts is because the Kennel Club (of the United Kingdom) has been dragged into reform.
The AKC can’t be reformed in the same way. The way it’s organized– with its standards delegated to its member breed clubs–makes it almost impossible to change anything.
So does it do me any good to write anything demanding reform of the AKC?
Not really.
No one will listen to me anyway. I’m just a trained monkey hacking away at the keys.
And the other thing is that the AKC’s more popular breeds aren’t really bred for shows anyway. If you want an AKC Labrador, you can find one that isn’t inbred at all. You can find one that has the size and color you like, even if it doesn’t adhere to standards.
And really, the same goes for German shepherds and golden retrievers, second and third most popular breeds with the AKC.
You can find very healthy German shepherds that don’t have the sloping backs or the ataxic gaits, and you can find little red border collie-type and polar-bear type golden retrievers.
Whatever floats your boat.
There is a lot of hope for those breeds.
However, in the breeds that are quite uncommon, like the affenpinscher that won Westminster last night. things are not so good.
The Germans, like the Americans, were very eager to take up the dog fancy system that had first been developed in the United Kingdom towards the end of the nineteenth century.
And like the Britons, they began to select among their various landraces to produce “improved” breeds.
Farms all over Germany had ratting dogs– some smooth-coated and some wire.
Some were mid-sized and could be of some use in herding stock, while others were small and were good at killing rats deep in the granaries. IN different areas, these dogs were called pinschers or schnauzers.
In the early 1900’s, they began to produce a show version of the small wire-coated pinscher with a somewhat snubbed nose. The dogs looked a little like some kind of monkey, and that’s why they are called affenpinschers. “Affen” means monkey.
This breed has never been very common.
And one of the little known-secrets is that it is almost impossible to breed.
I remember reading an article in Dog World about how hard it was to breed affenpinschers. The bitches would often have only two puppies in a litter, which isn’t that unusual in small dogs.
However, this breeder claimed that it would be very rare for both puppies to survive more than a week. One of them would usually die of a congenital defect within just a few days of birth.
And the chances that the survivor would make it to adulthood were not that high.
Now, the Germans were always into breeding really hardy dogs, so it makes me wonder why they would have wanted to produce a dog like this.
And maybe that explains why this breed never became popular.
The affenpinscher wasn’t the only small pinscher breed developed at this time.
Around the same time period, the Germans also tried to create an all-merle breed of miniature pinscher, which they called the “harlequin pinscher.”
As one could expect, an all merle breed will always be a colossal failure. That’s because if a dog is homozygous for the merle allele, the chances are very high that it won’t have functional eyes or open ear canals.
I could write a screed here, but all it would do is be some noise for a few days.
For me to tell people that the dog show isn’t the best way to evaluate dogs for breeding purposes is a bit like me telling you to stop giving money to John Hagee Ministries.
If you’ve made up your mind that both actions are correct, nothing I say or do will change your mind.
It doesn’t really matter.
The world is changing in both cases.
For me to kick a moribund institution like the AKC would simply be a waste of time.
It’s not going down because of anything I did.
It’s going down because times are changing.
People are questioning.
And because they are, it’s a waste of my time to write a screed.
If you’re looking for that, you can certainly find it. (And I bet you know where to look).
What a joy to see a lovely normal GSD puppy running in the fields near my house yesterday. Strong straight legs, the owner bought him from a breeder who does not adhere to CKC standards ( the one that breeds crippled rear legs)
I watched part of Westminster, and came away with the strong feeling that the handlers were handicapping their dogs. The heavier women in outdated, too-tight suits seemed unable to move well enough to actually allow the dogs to stride out and show one of the few things they CAN show at a Conformation show–reach and drive. Maybe the Greyhound DID have restricted reach, but since his handler couldn’t actually move enough to SHOW him, well… the men, who for the most part were wearing suits that looked like they actually fit, fared better.
On the whole, though, the whole spectacle has started to feel weird and outdated to me.
A couple of dogs being held back looked like they were actually choking on their chokers. Well there have always been quite a lot of very heavy, unattractive and unfit folks showing these “fit”, attractive dogs. I always thought it ridiculous. Physician heal thyself? Judge not lest ye be judged? :)
Far be it from me to judge someone for being heavy, BUT it doesn’t help at all to wear a pencil skirt that’s a size too small and restricts your movement (besides being unflattering) at a time when you’re trying to show your dog to his best advantage. I show in Agility, and there are plenty of heavy Agility handlers who can move, so it’s not all about weight.
If one was trying to lose weight, or was fit and gained weight, due to a serious knee or back issue, etc, that’s one thing. But a lot of these people just let themselves go. It happens. That’s fine.
But it’s when folks do that and then talk about dogs that are fit and what is beautiful and what is not – and if you overhear some of them, some are downright judgmental and proud of themselves and obnoxious – that I get a little put out.
Maybe there should be an equally petty standard for the people showing the dogs.
I’ve one saw a kid in a wheelchair showing a doberman at a 4-H show and I was like, give me a break. That dog needs to MOVE. I mean, are you kidding me???? Show an English bulldog next time, wheelchair kid. And don’t get me started on the long-legged people showing the pugs. It’s ridiculous. It’s like, unless you take itty-bitty steps you’re wasting our time with this and THEY NEVER TAKE ITTY BITTY STEPS.
I once saw an unattractive person who was going bald show an Afghan hound. He walked with a slight limp too and I MEAN C’MON. I was so put-off I walked out of the show. Disgusting.
You are just going to the wrong kind of show. You can easily be part of the audience for a Mr Universe or Miss World competition, You would be a lot happier there.
Elizabeth
Is that a stab at sarcasm? If so it’s quite funny. If not, I’m going to have to push my eyeballs back in their sockets.
Going to stop thread after this one. Not 100% sure of where you’re coming from Amber but just in case, please know this is certainly NOT a knock at the disabled or normal things people cannot help. You read my Feb 13 11:57am comment in it’s entirety, right? Including the first paragraph? I would think that would have made it pretty clear.
Ultimately it was more about attitudes of those sitting in judgment than anything else.
Please, I am simply pointing out that one of the few things you CAN judge in a conformation show is movement at a trot (reach and drive). If people would wear clothing that allowed THEM to move, the dogs could move out better. It’s not about weight or relative attractiveness, it’s about being able to show the dog to its best advantage. ESPECIALLY at a show like Westminster which, for good or ill, has some prestige.
For example, I made a comment on FB about not being able to see the IG move out, and someone commented back to me that he had a fiddle front and she wouldn’t have picked him anyway. Please, I can show you a fiddle front on an IG (my young rescue IG definitely has one, but it doesn’t seem to be causing her any problems in Agility training). If we’d been able to see him MOVE, we might have seen a better dog.
I used to watch to see the Saints and other giant breeds…but I just can’t do it any longer.
That Saint looked nothing like the Saints of old. Must every mastiff be subjected to the gradual re-shaping into overlipped, dome headed, wrinkly Dogue-de-Bordeaux/Puggish grotesqueness!?? The dog in Beethoven looked better for Christ’s sake!
I agree that it’s unlikely that one is going to get a change in AKC by fiat as one got in the UK club. However, I think that there were more winners this year with a title at the end of the name than there were last year. And there were, IMO, some notables: The flatcoat BOB had a UD. The NSDTR had a CD, RN and a JH. The Wirehaired pointing Griffon winner actually had a MH. A few others had a JH and in the herding group, there were two with at least a test title (the Malinois and the GSD) and the Icelandic had a MX. It’s sad there weren’t herding dogs with higher herding titles and that there weren’t more of them, and none of the hounds had working titles, but I think there might be a slowly growing change among the individual breed clubs. One can hope.
It’s not unlikely. It’s actually impossible. The AKC is not set up like the KC at all. The breed clubs own their own standards.
One advantage of the UKC: they own the standards. And right now many are being revised to eliminate extreme breeding. Stupid rears in GSDs, ectropion & entropion in Shar Pei, open fontanels in Chihuahuas, all are no longer allowed & are to be excused from the ring. They’re being quite strict, too. For example, Chihuahuas being shown that are found upon examination to have open skulls are to be noted by the judge & the info sent to the UKC. You can imagine the uproar. I have been told by Chihuahua fanciers that open fontanels are a GOOD thing, because it means the dog is “pure”. 8-P
Anna, you’re quite right. Difference is, UKC is a privately owned corporation, its officers are appointed, not elected, and the UKC executive can make whatever changes they feel appropriate. AKC is quite different, it is a “club of clubs” with elected officers/directors, and all changes to the Rules pertaining to dogs shows (and other events) must be voted on by the Delegates, in person, at one of the 4 Delegates’ meetings annually. There are some 600 or so delegates from various member clubs. An unwieldy and probably outdated arrangement in this day and age, but that’s what their constitution demands.
It is true that the Parent Clubs (one for each breed) do own the standard for their breeds. However, it is also possible for the AKC to put into place rules pertaining to all breeds. For instance, there are currently rules that cryptorchid/monorchid males must be disqualified, that lame dogs are to be excused, that attacking dogs must be disqualified, and prohibiting dogs which have been “changed in appearance by artificial means” (such as braces on teeth, corrective surgery, etc). (apparently that last does not apply to hairspray and creative scissoring/sculpting of coats!)
The biggest barrier to adding a general warning against dogs which (for instance) demonstrate any defect in normal function such as walking, breathing, skin health, eyelid formation, etc would be in changing the perceptions of some 3000 judges and untold numbers of exhibitors and breeders.
yes, the judges are perhaps one of the biggest problems (as indeed they were at Crufts). People who have spent decades breeding for and evaluating dogs based on one paradigm are going to have difficulty making a complete shift to a new one.
Be interesting if they had a “conformation” event following the invitational agility extravaganza and gave the breed winners of THAT as much coverage as Westminster. The way to persuade folk to change is, IMO, not so much to tell them what all they are doing wrong but to provide incentives to make the change by rewarding movement in that direction as much as possible.
Nearly all of the Anatolians last year & the Anatolian this year (only one entry) are working livestock guardians, as are most of the top winning Anatolians across the country. That breed club is doing something right. I wish mine would catch on.
That’s good to hear. The American ones are a shade more sighthound looking than the ones in the UK, but we don’t really have the opportunity to work the breed as we have no predators. I checked out the Tibetan Mastiff BOB this year and sadly it looks like the Americans are rewarding profuse coats and flashy colours rather than keeping the breed true to it’s original form. I hate seeing breeds “improved” when they are perfectly designed in the first place.
That old saw about dog shows being for “the evaluation of breeding stock” is a tired old myth. It is NOT endorsed by AKC itself (aren’t you surprised?) In the preface to the Rules pertaining to Dog Shows, it is stated clearly that dog shows are for displaying “what has been produced” and is to be judged. The produt– what HAS BEEN produced, and is right there in front of us. Not what might be produced by the dogs in the ring.
IF the purpose were to “evaluate breeding stock”, all exhibits would be shown with their parents and/or offspring, all judges would be breed specialists and experienced breeders themselves, each dog’s pedigree, veterinary reports etc would be available to the judge. All of which is most definitely not the case. And which would never catch on in this country!
For a moment just then I thought maybe this thread was in danger of being about human weight and fashion, always a dangerous way to go. I happen to exercise over a very popular dog walking area in the Chiltern hills of Bucks and Oxfordshire and the tendency seen here is now very much towards what we tend to describe as “working” strains plus crossbreds. But it would be ridiculous for anyone to suggest simplistically that all dogs which are shown are somehow unsound, notwithstanding the fact that some breeds can justifiably invite that comment by the bad way they are designed.
I didn’t mean to move it in that direction–it was just something I was thinking about after having watched some of the show on Monday night, and wishing that some of the dogs had had handlers who could actually move and show them to their best advantage.
Conformation showing now has a weird, outdated feel to me.
I agree with your last statement. No one seems to bother to mention the really well-made, functional, handsome dogs that took Best in their breeds at WKC. Such as the Foxhounds (both English and American), the GWHP, the GSHP, the American Water Spaniel, the Dalmatian, and more than can be mentioned here.
That’s probably the case in the vast majority of breeds. But they don’t create the freakshow that’s a better story both sides of the pond. “Vast majority of showdogs are sound, healthy family pets when not in the showring!” basically isn’t newsworthy. But “LOOK, LOOK – THAT BULLDOG IS A WALKING BAG OF HEALTH PROBLEMS SO LETS MAKE A SWEEPING STATEMENT ABOUT DOG SHOWS, PEDIGREE DOGS AND FINISH WITH CHARACTER ASSASINATING EVERY LAST PERSON INVOLVED!” is. Espercially in England where it’s fashionable to hate Crufts and blame all the ills of dogdom on it.
Registries will soon become irrelevant, at least in the US, anyways. Within the next five years you will see regulation of dog breeding on such a scale that it makes everything but the “maintain one dog and two bitches and breed solely for the pet market” scale illegal, unless it’s under USDA (AWA) or similar guidelines. It will be impossible to maintain anything like a serious breeding program.
Oh great – putting dog breeding soley into the hands of puppy mills. No doubt coming to the UK soon after. Thanks, PETA.
hmmmm.. the AKC is actually one of the prime lobbying organizations AGAINST breed regulations. So they get attacked for supporting “puppy mills”. Guess they can’t win…
you’ll have to apply for a class “C” kennel license to maintain up to 50 dogs throughout any given year. This would include the registered puppies in the head count for the year. Many townships have their own limit on the number of dogs per household due to the popularity of hunting so these limits are at 25 dogs per home, again inclusive of the registered puppies produced per year.
I say this because if you want to maintain a breeding program then there is a way to do it. You just have to actually list as a kennel … which for a hobby breeder is not a bad thing. It’s not like you will likely turn a profit, so it won’t be hit as a business. Unless you report a loss every year… then what kind of business is that. A class “C” kennel designation will allow you to be a breeding program and not have to walk the line of a Puppy Mill to do it.
Also consider we’re talking the tracking of registry puppies. If your Breeding program is more inline with breed diversity and outcrossing… There’s going to be a litter or two produced that does get under the radar… since it does not have to be registered. You simply track it in your own stud books for private reference. But the purebred stock does get registered. So the head count is based off these numbers.
In the end there is a way to maintain a program. You just can’t go into it as a hobbyist anymore… You are required to ramp up and maintain your “facilities” up to a code of standards for the health and well being of your dogs. Clean, Well ventilated, with a means of egress and fire prevention that is easily accessible. Proper Crate sizes and kennel runs. And an appropriate amount of daily exercise. For many of the breeders I work with and the others I know… they already exceed these provisionals by a long mile in every respect.
The door is not shut on fixing the problems in the purebred dog fancy… its just been given a better framework to accomplish things in a legal way.
Changes probably won’t happen because it seems like special interest groups like hunters or dog-breeders and rescue organizations are more intent on shooting each others screaming “my way is better than yours” than to come to compromises.
Animal rights movement is not something to be scared of. The divides and the infightings in groups give the AR advocates power they don’t have in other countries. I am sorry, but informal self-policing doesn’t work.
In the interests of “something more interesting” to write about:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055937
slightly more readable article on same subject:
http://news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=10498
My dog Sam eats purple flowers.
No matter how many working-titled dogs there are in a conformation show, it’s still just a beauty contest.
And a talent show if there is obedience and agility. Or chasing other animals mostly for fun rather than necessity if you go hunting with them. You can reduce anything people do as a hobby to make it sound ridiculous if you want to. I can think of worse hobbies than hanging out with your dogs and your friends on a weekend for a bit of mostly friendly competition and a bit of shopping. Especially in summer when a lot of UK dog shows are held somewhere that the scenery is nice. Of course, some people take things too far and too seriously. These are the ones that reflect badly on everyone else involved and end up as the exceptions that are held up as the rule by people not even involved most of the time. As they’re out in the open about it and anybody can go to a dog show, it makes for an easy target.
Sure, showing dogs can be a good hobby & for many people, it is. But most of the breeds that are shown in conformation are eventually ruined, at least the “show” lines are, by inbreeding for extreme “type” and by ignoring or minimizing serious health problems in the all-out effort to please those judges and obtain those titles and honors. Obedience, hunting, agility, schutzhund, herding trials, etc. may not exactly reflect real-life situations, but at least the dogs are actually doing something, using their brains, not just straining away at their leashes & being judged on how well the handler has stacked & primped & baited them.
Not everybody strings their dogs up when showing – I hate seeing that myself. Sadly, you’re right that breeding purely for conformation has distorted many breeds, but the dogs bred to compete suffer just as much from popular sire syndrome in many cases and just because a dog is bred to compete in something doesn’t automatically mean it’s healthy and long lived. The inbreeding zealots exist on both sides of the dog world.
Most show dogs enjoy their day out very much. If they didn’t they would not go to many at all as dog that look miserable don’t win. Going for a ride, having a walk in a new area full of exciting new smells, meeting new/familiar people/dogs and getting fed high value treats if you need to be baited (not all dogs do) is going to cause a fair bit of mental stimulation for most dogs. I’d also add that travelling well, being handled in a personal manner by a stranger, being calm and paying attention to your owner as you are exercised amongst other dogs and are asked to stand still is excellent training for a dog that is a companion dog 99% of it’s time.
I’m going to point out that I have never shown my dogs but know plenty of people who do and have been to many English dog shows that often host conformation and competitive sports at the same venue. And I’m going to leave this debate where it is as unless sweeping judgements are made, it would take all day to write the 20:20 colours down.
You are right, and have been much more restrained and polite than I would have been,
I am involved with a breed which does not have health problems which derive from its conformation – a long lived breed which enjoys the outdoors as much as showing. I am very offended at being condemned as breeding inbred cripples. I`ll match my dogs` health and activity level and speed against any dog of similar size. you can bring.
Herding trials – just circus, with no place any more for the dog`s initiative.
Schutzhund – I don`t feel the need for a trained vicious attack dog, as I am quite vicious and pugnacious enough myself for any situation that arises.
Hunting – just watch my lot go after small game!
And they enjoy their day out at the show as well.
Elizabeth
Google “MH-test”. Pet-owners deserve to have dogs which have high scores in the MH-test, but the majority of dog breeders avoid it.
Surely MH was designed for hunting dogs?
Elizabeth
Saw an episode of the Dr. Pol (“The Incredible Dr. Pol”) vet show yesterday in which a Bulldog (or as Scottie says, Toad Dog) breeder brought a pregnant bitch in for C-section. Pol specifically said that because they’ve been bred for such large heads and small hindquarters, they can’t deliver naturally. I dare anybody to try and justify such extremes in conformation. That’s just nuts!
I doubt many people other than the ones owning said breed and similar ones would even try to justify breeding such an affront to evolution. You’d think people who are breeding dogs that cannot breed and whelp without intervention would have some sort of epiphany along the road at some point.
Afterthought: Our 2nd “rescued” Saint, “Jamila” came from a friend and breeder. Jamila was supposed to be the premier result of an intensive breeding program (and comformationally she apparently was), but she was also a nervous wreck at dog shows and hated riding in a car. She simply couldn’t be shown–hell this 170lb behemoth would run and hide if you crinkled a plastic bag. (Thus the reason she ended up as a family pet.)
My bottom-line here is that not all those dogs look forward to showing.
How do you think you ended up with Jamila in the first place if dogs that hate being shown are forced to? Judges will not place a nervy dog on a regular basis as it’s considered a major fault, even in aloof breeds. Dogs are honest creatures. They can’t hide being abjectly miserable like people do and put on a face for the showring to please their owners.
According to the data on MH-test in Sweden, Norway and Sweden, the popular show breeds have low scores.
Check the databases at Genetica, or the breed-specific profiles at the SBK.
The MH-test looks very much like the temperament test in the U.S. From what I can tell, the temperament test is MAINLY used to “prove” that the “dangerous” breed of the day is not dangerous.
Although breeds are supposed to be evaluated based on the expected temperament of that breed, the fact is that ALL breeds tend to be scored like working dogs.
From their website:
“Failure on any part of the test is recognized when a dog shows:
■Unprovoked aggression
■Panic without recovery
■Strong avoidance”
I can tell you that a herding breed (or herding cross) is likely to require a different amount of time for “recovery” than a sporting or working breed. Of course it depends on individual dogs–but my older male Sheltie, who always appears to be running for office, would probably pass a temperament test easily, while my more reserved Shelties would have be less likely to do so–and yet the more reserved dogs are more correct temperamentally for the breed.
Couple that with the disinclination of many companion dog/herding dog owners to actually take them through the test (because what’s the point?) and I don’t put much stock in temperament testing.
The temperament test used in North America has not been scientifically validated. The MH-test in Sweden is. In fact, in some European countries, there are discussions about whether or not making the MH-test mandatory to reduce the number of behaviour-related issues such as nervousness, fear-aggression, noise-phobia. It is understandable there are discussions about this topic because as we are becoming increasingly more urbanized, certain behaviours in a crowded population are not acceptable.
If the MH-test doesn’t satisify you, google the MT (Mentaltest hund). It is tested for dogs between 48 months to 6 years old.
Technically, a dog cannot fail an MH-test since it is only a description of the dog and it is carried out for dogs between 12 months to 24 months.
I would never show a dog that did not enjoy the day out. Where would be the point?
I am sitting here with the ample weight of Red Sonja in my lap. She didn`t like shows, being a very quiet person by by nature and not liking crowds. So I didn`t ask her to.
And at 14, this quiet, distinctly portly girl is still with me.
Elizabeth