I received my copy of Ted Kerasote’s Pukka’s Promise: The Quest for Longer-Lived Dogs a few weeks ago.
It’s taken me quite some time to read it, largely because every two or three pages I have to stop and think– or just marvel at the prose.
Ted Kerasote knows how to write about retriever dogs. I know of no other author who can capture the essence of Labrador and golden retrievers in quite the same way he can. The power of Merle’s Door, his previous book about his beloved Labrador cross, largely came from this skill at capturing the essence of these animals. They are very rugged, very natural looking animals. They behave and move as if they have not one ounce of artifice about them, but they are also among the friendliest and most tractable dogs mankind has produced. Capturing these dogs in prose is quite task, one at which I fail on a regular basis.
The book is centered around the arrival of Pukka, a yellow Labrador from a breeder in Minnesota, and his maturation into a strong flusher and retriever of ruffed grouse, pheasants, and chukars (Pakistani red-legged partridges, very closely related to French partridges).
But the book’s central question is one of the most complex issues ever examined in a dog book.
I don’t know of anyone else has ever tried to answer this question.
And it’s a question we always ask:
Why is it that dogs don’t live very long?
Kerasote takes on this question from every possible angle.
But at nearly every chapter he winds up hitting a barrier.
It turns out that there aren’t any good studies with large n’s that are examining whether dogs live longer on raw or commercially prepared diets or whether spaying and neutering are actually that beneficial to the dog. There is also a very good chapter on the No Kill Movement, which I’m sure regular readers of this blog will enjoy.
This book asks so many questions and examines so many different aspects of dog health that a single blog post really can’t do it justice.
In addition to the central question, there are very good pieces on the morality of using e-collars or whether one should adopt a dog or get it from a breeder.
But there is one angle of the question of canine longevity that Kerasote examines for which science has provided a definite answer:
We’re breeding dogs very stupidly.
We’ve destroyed their gene pools by allowing closed registries and popular sire cults to dominate how we evaluate breeding stock.
We’ve allowed caprices of fashion to dictate which dogs get bred, for one thing we’ve found out is that dog genetic material is very easily manipulated to produce bizarre shapes. It’s probably one reason why the dog family has been so successful over the past 40 million years.
But in the hands of the dog sculptors, we’ve begun to push them to their limit.
Kerasote captures all of this in the book in devastating detail.
The best dog literature makes you fall in love with the canine characters.
And Kerasote does this very well.
But in his perusal of the different reasons why dogs die young, you will be made to stop and think for a bit.
I had not considered that phthalates were so common in dog toys. I thought they had been regulated in the same way that children’s toys had been.
They are not.
And it’s quite a discomforting reality to know that we’re exposing dogs to levels of carcinogens that we would never allow our children to experience. And the only way to solve that issue is through regulation.
Yeah. He goes there.
Dogs didn’t evolve to become Methuselahs.
Kerasote makes this very clear.
Dogs evolved from wolves, which are meant to have very short lives and rapid reproductive rates.
Their basic biology is to live short lives and have lots of babies.
It does not matter that both dogs are wolves are higher mammals, which have complex social lives and corresponding higher intelligence.
They evolved living hard and fast. Genes only get passed onto those individuals who mature rapidly and have lots of offspring.
Animals that have that reproductive strategy tend to have shorter lifespans.
And although Kerasote entertains the idea of us selectively breeding dogs to live to be 50 or 80 years old, such an undertaking would take anywhere from 400 to one thousand years of dedicated selection.
And a lot of that selection would have to override the other things we breed for.
In the end, there are many ways to have longer-lived dogs.
But the idea that is most clearly understood now is to have better breeding practices.
We may not have dogs that live into their 80’s, but we might be able to breed golden retrievers in such a way that lifespans of 17 or 18 are more common in the breed.
I think that’s a very reasonable place to start.
I’d just like to see breeds like Saints return to their former comformations and life expectancies–6 years is ridiculous.
There is a part of the book in which he explains that it might be impossible to breed a giant breed that lives very long.
Our first 2 Saints–one a rescue from the inner city, the other too nervous to show–lived about 12 years. I’m willing to accept that, but our last 3 Saints all d. around the 6 year mark. I just can’t do that again. BTW: Jamila, our 2nd Saint, weighed 170lbs (her sire was about 220) yet still lived 12 years.
I suspect that giant breeds would have to be taken back to their former state of being large breeds to get any longevity back. A friend used to breed mastiffs and she never had one reach over the age of 6 until she got a small (for a mastiff) brindle bitch totally unlike her former lines.
I have a Tibetan Mastiff, which really are a large breed in comparison to genuine giants and size wise are nearer akita/mamalmute size (despite the misconception of them being huge). Their average lifespan is double that of a Saint or a Bernese, with many reaching 12-15 years old. Bernese especially should technically be the same size or smaller than a TM, but in real life they are usually heavier in build and the males are often larger. The TMs haven’t been selectively bred for show in the West for that long in comparison, so maybe that has some bearing on it.
That breed is a notable exception, as are those Turkish livestock guardian dogs that I can tell apart from each other.
I don’t know about ovtcharkas, but it seems to me that dogs that have a lot of natural selection going are just going to be hardier than St. Bernards, whose extreme size is a very recent phenomenon.
There are some lines of Caucasians & Central Asians which do have the limited lifespan of the giant breeds, but these tend to be the really huge, heavily boned, massive modern-type dogs which you find in show kennels, mostly in Eastern Europe. My working-bred dogs, which are definitely more large than giant, come from lines which have normal lifespans of 15 years or so. There is a lot more natural selection going on in the working types so I think you are not far off suggesting that this has some bearing on the normal lifespan found in the Turkish & Central Asian dogs. It’s definitely something I plan to keep track of in my breeding program. I want to know how long my pups live, as well as other husbandry practices, & a big part of this is so I can ensure I am producing vigorous, long-lived animals which remain healthy well into old age.
He really is an excellent writer. I loved the balance between narrative and science in Merle’s Door. I’m looking forward to reading Pukka’s Promise.
The last chapter of the book is the best nature/dog writing I’ve ever read.
And I’ve read a lot of it. Just be prepared, it’s perfection.
I am on chapter seven.
“But the idea that is most clearly understood now is to have better breeding practices.”
What we need is to change the idea that closed registries have some kind of advantage for dogs (they don’t) and that breeding outside the system is somehow evil, immoral, or unethical.
When he goes back to where he found Merle and talks to the people in the area about their dogs, those people would be lynched if they tried to integrate into ‘mainstream’ dogdom.
How we think about dogs in regards to breeds and breeding in mainstream dog culture is *still* directly influenced by the class prejudice/superiority complex/eugenics based thinking of the Victorians. It’s *two-thousand-and-freaking-thirteen* now. Time to leave that crap behind.
I loved Merle’s Door. I must acquire a copy of this book.
And amen to no more closed registries, for all the reasons already stated.
This book is fabulous. I loved Merle’s Door, and Pukka’s Promise is just as good, better in many aspects. I hope that people wake up take what he’s said in this book (especially about current breeding practices) and put it into good use.
I haven’t read the book yet, but I did look at some reviews and comments, and I am curious to know if he actually recommends (or just investigates without particular comment) “alternative” spay/neuter options like tubal ligation and vasectomy for dogs? I would think the primary reason that most people alter their dogs is not necessarily to prevent a pregnancy, but to prevent hormonal behaviors (OK, that’s why *I* have done it in the past) and those options won’t prevent hormonal behaviors.
If you’re living with more than one dog (and more than one breed or type) this is more of an issue I think. When my intact male Sheltie bit my (then) intact male Italian Greyhound for jumping on his (the Sheltie’s) back–a perfectly reasonable response in my Sheltie’s mind–he caused a lot more damage than he would have if he had bitten another Sheltie. So once the IG’s wounds healed, we had him neutered and voila–no more trouble between the two.
I am inclined to leave dogs intact if I can (and sold a litter of Sheltie puppies without requiring s/n, and asking if they do to wait until the puppies are over 2 years old) but I have a feeling my IG will have a longer, happier life neutered, in this case…
Well, but in this case study, are you sure your Iggy never pushed the issue just because your Sheltie kicked his butt that time?
Or was the neutering responsible for it?
It’s impossible to test that – and you can’t give a dog back his balls. :)
Jessica, good point! although I have had recently-neutered rescues and have noticed, as the hormones go away, a diminished inclination to challenge my intact male Sheltie–and a diminished inclination, on his part, to be bothered by them invading his space–could have more to do with him than with the other dogs, but he’s the one who gets to be intact, and that’s just the way it is!
Hormonal injections. :D
It’s not uncommon that before a dog is spayed or neutered in European Union as a final solution, the dogs are given hormonal injection to stop the production of testosterone to see if the hormones are the underlying cause.
Europeans keep their dogs intact, and it’s not uncommon for them to own two dogs. About 90% of dogs in Nordic countries are kept intact as well. Countries like Germany and France don’t have the behavioural problems North Americans have.
The problem is that your statements are ancedotals as well. If we look at scientific studies, we find that spayed/neutered dogs have more behavioural problems than intact dogs.
Agree that it’s anecdotal, but I am living with 5 dogs, one an intact bitch, in a very small house–so it’s hard to keep her separate from the other dogs without just sending her somewhere while she is in standing heat. Anyway, I am simply curious to know if he has looked in to these studies and drawn any conclusions?
Do you have a link to these studies, BTW?
Pukka looks like a really nice, tall and fit labrador. Nothing like the ones you see around in Germany or worse in Australia.
And those Japanese Labs, oh no . .
I have not read Ted Kerasote’s book yet, but will purchase it immediately. I have been breeding crossbred dogs since the late 60s with no regard to registries or show potential, but just to produce healthier and longer-lived animals. I have always favored large (giant?) dogs, and have never believed the claim that “big dogs die young”. I added wolf to my mixed-breed dog line in 1974 to make use of the wolf’s physical superiority to the domestic dog. The wolf has not been ruined by man’s manipulations and has continued to live under the rule of “The survival of the fittest”. Weak or unstable wolves in the wild do not live to breed. Once I had physically sound, longer-lived animals, I then began breeding for trainability (unfortunately, the major drawback to adding wolf to existing dog lines/breeds is that you lose trainability at a greater rate than you gain physical health). After fifteen generations I was producing animals that were as much as ¾ wolf, yet were as trainable as a good shepherd (and so physically superior the average German shepherd seemed crippled when compared to them).
One of my main breeders was Chauka, a 21/32 wolf that died just a few months short of 15 years old at the weight of 176 lbs. In his prime this animal weighed around 160 lbs., and was as structurally sound and as light footed as a 20 lb. Jack Russell terrier. My line of wolf-dogs usually ranged from 110 to 160 lbs. for males, and 20% smaller for females. Yet their average lifespan was 14 years. I believe this longer lifespan was because I intentionally chose older dogs to breed from; especially older (but still sound and healthy) males. Lobo, the ¾ German shepherd, ¼ Siberian husky I’ve mentioned in previous comments, and an ancestor of Chauka, sired his last litter at over 14 years old.
A man once brought one of my wolf-dogs back to me to show me how well he was doing. This animal was only ¼ wolf, but the rest was my dog line (a mixture of healthy and long-lived malamute, shepherd and husky lines), not wolf crossed with AKC anything. The dog was small for my line of wolf-dogs, and was a long-legged and racy looking animal weighing about 80 lbs. He was 16 years old, yet if I had to guess I would have said he was 6. This is because I was breeding for genetic health and longevity, and didn’t give a damn about any breed standard or how my dogs would fare in a dog show. My one goal was to produce healthy and long-lived dogs (the wolf-like beauty came naturally).
As far as I know no breeder of show dogs has ever bred specifically for longevity. This may have been attempted as a third or fourth thought after correct conformation, the right coat color, and other things required by the standards for that breed in order to win at dog shows were considered, but has any breeder of an AKC or KC breed ever bred their animals solely for health and longevity? I doubt it, because as long as they’re breeding AKC or KC dogs they’re breeding for show wins, and to even enter one of their dogs in a show they’re stuck in the closed registry trap.
If a registered dog starts winning championships at a year old, and is considered the best of his breed by the time he’s three, and has sired hundreds of puppies, with many of those puppies going on to win championships of their own, but then suddenly dies, do all those breeders and owners of those champion dogs descended from that dog say, “Well, we certainly can’t breed from this line.”, and spay and neuter those show champions? I doubt it; I suspect they just create a myth that giant dogs die young, and that’s something we must just accept and live with. And as far as I’m concerned that’s a load of crap! It would be just as easy to breed a big (giant) dog that lived to be 14 or 15 years old as it is to breed a dog that has just the right markings, or stands between x and x number of inches tall at the shoulder; but not if the breeders stay within the AKC or KC registries and the closed pedigree system. The only way to do this is to cross-breed, using dogs that have shown they aren’t going to die young. But you cannot begin such a breeding program and stay within the registry requirements of the AKC or KC.
As Konrad Lorenz states in his book ‘Man Meets Dog’, “It’s a sad but undeniable fact that breeding to a strict standard of physical points is incompatible with breeding for mental qualities. Individuals who conform to both sets of requirements are so rare that they would not even supply a foundation for the further propagation of their breed.”
Replace “mental qualities” with “longevity” or “genetic health” and Lorenz’s statement holds as true today as it did back in 1953.
Wolves in the wild usually die young; but so would we if we had to live under the conditions they live under with the same medical care. But I bet if you were to take any of the big, 130 lb. wolves living in Yellowstone and put them in a protected environment and gave them the same food and care we give our dogs they’d routinely live to be 15 years old.
And another point I must make is that it appears most breeders of giant AKC dogs cannot tell the difference between a physically fit giant dog, and one that is simply a big Baby Huey (for those of us old enough to remember that comic book). It’s like comparing a 280 lb. physically fit professional football player or wrestler to Billy Gardell (sorry Billy). Just because a dog is a giant, and belongs to a giant breed doesn’t mean it’s fit to use to perpetuate the breed. Most of the giant AKC dogs I see today are broken down specimens that plod around as if they can’t carry their own weight. (And before anyone responds to this telling me how fit their AKC dog is, I must remind them that I’m used to seeing a 140 lb. animal that can clear a 6 ft. high fence without touching the top.)
Even the “primitive” breeds that haven’t been destroyed by show breeders seem to be deteriorating rapidly. A few years ago I bought a Caucasian Ovcharka (CO, or Caucasian Mountain Dog) from a breeder in a western state. After waiting a couple years for a puppy from just the right breeding I was sent a puppy with obvious physical faults, even by the Ovcharka breed standard, and discovered this breeder just lets her pack of Ovcharkas run together and breed at will, and then does DNA tests on the puppies to see who sired who. Is this any way to run a breeding program? My CO is now a little over three years old, and is a physical joke. She only weighs 130 lbs., yet can barely walk (I can outrun her and I’m 62 years old with bad knees). This is supposedly a breed that hasn’t been destroyed by the show ring, yet this dog is such a physical wreck that when they play, my mixed breed wolfhounds run circles around her as the poor girl stands confused by all this dog flesh flashing past.
In nature, early death decides who doesn’t get to pass on their genes; in the domestic dog world, we decide who sires next year’s litter of puppies, and until people decide a healthy, long-lived dog is preferable to a short-lived show champion we’re going to continue having big (giant) dogs that die young.
Please excuse any mistakes I’ve made writing this, I was interrupted by dogs asking to go out four times, and once by the latest puppy I’m raising vomiting his breakfast on the floor.
DAC
No doubt that’s a very good life for both of them. The other good life type is the pack life, as seen here, led by the German dogperson Heini Winter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFP28ANXLLA
Haven’t read the book yet, but definitely plan on it.
Am just about to acquire my first cross breed, a Golden Retriever x GSD and yes, he was deliberately bred with a purpose in mind, oh the horror .lol.
What was he bred for? Sounds like a good service dog candidate.
You got it in one, specifically a guide dog.
Cool. The service dog world has a long history of purposeful cross-breeding. I’d love to see pics!
Yes, the most common guide dog, at least in the UK is a cross, Labrador x Golden Retriever… There is supposed to be 4 dogs in our class(includes minE)I believe the other 3 are all Lab x Golden’s… I’d been offered 2 Lab x Poodles previous to that.
Can’t post pics as am on my phone, but he’s solid black apart from a couple little white patches on his chin, chest and the toes of one of his hind paws, coat is more like that of the retriever, has quite a long tail… Tbh, kind of looks like a Collie cross.
I’ve been curious about this book and now I’m definitely going to buy it. The Rman seal-of-approval has sold me. Wild wolves hve an average lifespan of 6 years, and captive wolves, fed raw whole deer, and protected, are still lucky if they make it to 13 or so most of the time.
Genetic manipulation and diversity may save some dogs in the lifespan arena, and certainly the healthy QUALITY of life arena, but it sure never dawned on me as worthwhile or realistic to aim for dogs with lifespans anywhere near our own. , No doubt some folks think of Bluey, the ACD who lived to 29, but exceptions to rules are exceptions to rules. If you can get anywhere near 20 years, I think that’s quite fine.
Wolves, unlike dogs, are not rapid breeders. It takes two years for a wolf to become sexually mature, and, at the most, an alpha pair can produce only a litter a year. Compare this with a bitch who goes in heat by the time she”s 6 months old, and can produce litters ranging from 3 to 12 pups every 6 months. My son had a Golden Retriever whose first litter was 12 living pups. I helped bottle feed them because she didn’t have enough teats for them all. Wolves’ litters are far smaller. Perhaps 4 to 6 cubs.
Two things are leading to the extinction of the wild wolf. (!) They haven’t changed for 6,000,000 years, but their ecological niche has been disappearing
due to the explosive human populations which have demolished the open grasslands which used to host huge herds of ungulates, which the wolf is especially adapted to prey on. A wolf can chase a herd for up to 30 miles and then herd one animal back to its den and kill it andy then share it with its pack. Those large herds no longer exist, so wolves, finding cows on the range, go after them–which means ranchers will kill the wolves. and (3) wolves are iincapable of adapting .
The irony is that those wolves who became dogs had a mutation in the genes for their hypothalamus which made dogs as highly adaptable as humans themselves are. If a wild wolf had such an adaptation, it wouldn’t have been beneficial for 6,000,000 years–when wolves were the perfect killing machines. But the small wolves who started on the road to dogdom would have benefitted from being more adaptable
Compared to other larger carnivorans they are. Wolves reproduce at age two. Lions and most species of bears don’t have young until they are two.
Not all wolves mature at two. Some wolves go into heat before they are year old.
Also, I think our understanding of dogs vs. wolves is totally backward.
I think the main reason wolves are hard to tame now and are so reactive is because centuries of persecution by man made them that way.
The original wolf was a very easy animal to tame, as are many, many different species of wild dog that are not persecuted.
I think the original wolf was more like a dog, and what we have left now are the result of the selection for “paranoia” that came from persecution.
This is also the big error in Coppinger. Coppinger compares dogs to modern wolves, as if they are somehow a good model for how wolves always were.
I don’t think they were always like that.
I think wolves were unusually easy to tame. So easy a caveman could do it.
Also comparing a domestic dog to a captive wolf from northern Canada doesn’t tell us very much. Dogs aren’t even derived from those wolves, and those wolves are as specialized and adapted and selected by both nature and humans to be the way they are.
Retrieverman, you write
>>>>>>>The original wolf was a very easy animal to tame, as are many, many different species of wild dog that are not persecuted. I think the original wolf was more like a dog – – >>>>>>
Those wolves are NOT gone. We have evidence, the so (ridiculously) called “yard wolves”. People blame those wolves don’t respect humans (“anymore”), they have lost their fear, so they must be shot.
These are the wolves you could tame easily. All animals have genetically ordered basic temperament – curious and brave X shy and aggressive. Even a recent grasshopper -research proved this “thesis”.
>>>>>>>> If a wild wolf had such an adaptation, it wouldn’t have been beneficial for 6,000,000 years>>>>>>>>>
If you study run-offs, wild-gone domestic dogs, especially their offsprings, you’ll notice that those genes are soon lost.
>>>>>>> – – – when wolves were the perfect killing machines.>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh please, don’t put that in your book, so worn-out. It’s almost a myth, since it doesn’t mention that is was the high-developed social culture of the wolf that helped it climb up to top of the world. Cats are not like that – tho the Pantheras are “killing machines” as well.
I was about to send some Russian / East Europien stray dog video-clips to Dr. Elaine Ostrach to show the other nature of the dog. But now I see many of them have been removed off the Youtube. Those complaining poodle-owners, I bet, curse them..!
Does any one know is it possible to load and save Youtube material in one’s PC ?
While I believe Rman is correct in saying we’ll probably never be able to breed dogs that lived to be 60 or 80 years old, I think we should reasonably expect to be able to breed them so even giant dogs averaged 14 years of life.
I grew up in farm country, and every farm had one or more “farm dogs”. Being a “Dog person” from birth, I was always more interested in the dogs on a farm than any of the other animals. Though there was always a variety of dog breeds on the local farms, including a lot of purebreds, the majority of the best farm dogs seemed to be some sort of collie-shepherd mix; good old dogs that seemed to train themselves and know what was expected of them. Most farm families with the best dogs seemed to have a family line of dogs that was self-perpetuating and had come down through at least a couple human generations. My aunt was one of these farmers. She and her husband always had a small pack of large collie-shepherd type dogs that had been in her husband’s family for years. Looking back after all these years, I remember them resembling (big headed for their size) Leonbergers in coat and color. When I was little these dogs seemed huge to me, but I doubt the biggest went much over 90 lbs.
One of my aunt’s dogs was named Boy, and he was the one that seemed to take to me and follow me around the most when I visited the farm. Boy saved me from a Holstein bull when I was about eight years old. I was catching frogs and turtles along a large stream that wandered through the farm, and when I reached a bend where a sharp cut-bank left no room to walk beside the stream, I climbed the bank to move around the bend and begin my hunt again. When I came up over the bank I discovered I was not far from the farms herd Holstein cows in a pasture. As I walked along the bank an animal separated itself from the herd and trotted in my direction. When I noticed it coming my way I looked more closely at it, and realized it was a bull. I tried to run, but the bull picked up speed, and I quickly found myself cornered at the edge of the bank. The bull had been coming with its head up, but as it closed with me it lowered its head and actually charged. Just before it made contact Boy seemingly appeared out of nowhere and hit the bull from the side in the neck area. The bull staggered sideways, stepped over the lip of the back, and tumbled over the bank into the river, Boy going over with it. I took off at a dead run and made it to the fence without ever looking back to see what happened to the bull or dog. Boy joined me unscathed before I reached the fence. I had been absolutely terrified, and was convinced that Boy had saved my life. That one event may have been what cemented me as a dedicated dog man.
When my aunt and her husband retired from farming Boy and his line of dogs slowly died off, their only son being a career Navy man, and not interested in farming, and even I didn’t realize what we were losing as I worked at saving Lobo’s genes in my own line of dogs. Hindsight is always 100%.
All these various lines of farm dogs have disappeared as their original owners died and no one in the family took up farming, the land being sold off for development. It also seems that most farmers nowadays don’t appreciate a good dog like the old timers did. So no one continued breeding them, and the lines disappeared. But it’s a shame we’ve lost these intelligent and hardy old lines of farm collies while breeders have perpetuated the needle-headed lines of show collies.
Getting back on subject: all these old lines of farm dogs seemed to have lived to be around 14 years old barring accidents or early deaths due to a disease. So I would speculate 14 years is a realistic goal for anyone interested in actually breeding big dogs for longevity.
DAC
Last time I was in S. WI (granted it was awhile ago), I could still find examples of those old collie x shepherd mixes. I suspect that the family farms still keep some of those strains going. And yeah they were big dogs–I can remember some that looked more like small beef cattle than dogs.
Actually I can’t stand the longer life -debate now going into dogs too. What’s the use of the longevity, when it’s clear you can’t usually sport / work with a dog that’s much over 10 ? Going round with an old one causes many times social problems too when you meet other dogs. You have to be quite a witty to prevent possible attacks against your senior before they actualize. That may limit the life of you both.
Didn’t you just read DAC’s post about how long his dogs are living healthy lives? Besides, if the majority of dogs you’re likely to run into are well-socialized, the attacks you write of won’t happen.
massagu, your comment about me reading DAC or not is irrelevant since I was not talking about this extra small minority here, but the general trend that rules in the world. Some hipsters here seem to see their own clean toes only. And wolves / dogs are racists also what comes to the age of an individual. I’ve seen very well socialized dogs attacking in a eye blink against a weaken senior.
Our LGDs work well into old age. We have a 10 year old Pyr/ASD who’s still in her prime & a 14 year old ASD who, while a little stiff from arthritis, is still with her herd happy as a clam with no interest in retiring to be a house dog. Old dogs are invaluable when it comes to helping train young dogs.
And my 14 year old Chow/Sibe cross is still the unchallenged queen of every dog we meet. She puts down strange dogs with a glance. They literally prostrate themselves before her.
Anna, yeah, of course seniors are among us and they create the feeling and show a good example. That just doesn’t remove the fact that a dog over ten has seen his better days. You can’t go hiking with him. or put him out to defend the sheep against wolves, can you. At least that wouldn’t be wise.
Did I not just say that the 10 year old & the 14 year old are indeed still out working defending the herd from predators? And my Chow/Sibe house dog, who is now 14, completed her Working Pack Dog Excellent title from the AMHL at the age of 10. She had to carry 30% of her body weight &
“a total of 120 miles must be completed in 1 to 3 trips. Each trip will be a minimum of 40 miles with an average of 10 miles per day on traveling days under normal conditions (maintained trails and normal weather conditions). Day trips from the base camp must adhere to the weight requirements unless the applicant does not wish to include those miles in the trip total.”
She completed these requirements in 2 trips, the longest day of which included a 15 mile hike with 2,000 feet of elevation gain. And, as usual with my luck, “normal weather conditions” meant we had rain, snow, & thunderstorms on these trips.
She is also the uncontested “queen mother” of the resident “pack” here. The new young queen, my 4 year old Central Asian, did not battle her for the privilege, it simply happened organically, & she is accorded to the same respect she has always received from the other dogs.
Obviously I would not *acquire* an already 10+ year old dog with the intent of working her, but just being 10 or older does not mean a dog becomes instantly useless. Your experience that dogs are over & done & likely to be attacked by other dogs by 10 years old is every bit as anecdotal as our experience which tells us otherwise. Diet, exercise, & genetics, as well as the dynamics of any given group of resident dogs, has a lot more to do with “seniority” in dogs than simply their age in years.
My first Sheltie lived to be 16. My second, and my first Agility dog, I got as a 7-year old rescue and he lived to be 17. He competed until he was 13, and only retired because he had a cataract in one eye and was starting to slow down. Sheltie #3, also a rescue, unfortunately had to retire earlier than hoped due to a severely arthritic shoulder (an injury he had before I got him) but lived to be 15. #4 is 11 years old and still competing in Agility and Flyball–I have slowed him down, but only because I have a couple of younger dogs coming up that I want to trial more frequently. Still, he loves to run Flyball and Agility, and is certainly more than able (he’s my ego boost when my younger dogs aren’t running as well). At age 11, he also fathered a litter (his second, but the first personally bred by me).
Yes but that is quite exceptional. You also must admit that the numbers you give us to prove your rescues’ longevity may well be minus (or plus, who knows) few years.
No, the rescues had known birth dates. They were owner give-ups to rescue, not pulled from a shelter or off the street with unknown backgrounds.
We are lucky (so far) in Shelties. It’s not unusual to see structurally sound dogs competing in agility into the teens, or to see lifespans of 15 or more.
I have seen a prediciable trend over the years – that being that the Shelties who are active and athletic tend to reach the max lifespan. Those who are allowed to get fat seem to never make it past 10 or twelve. I realize that’s just a casual observation on my part but I am amazed at how it holds true. We know this with people but for some reason too many folks let their dogs get obese. A death sentence for sure. I’ve observed close relatives divided along the ‘fitness line’ as to longevity for years.
Generally. if the dog is well-managed and IF you don’t get cancer, you get a good lifespan. Nora’s experience is not necessarily exceptional, she obviously keeps her dogs fit. I have often wondered if the crossbreeding in our Shelties history has helped that. In addition, there are over one hundred ‘founding” individuals in our breed (unregistered dogs who cannot be traced) so even though we suffer from popular sires I do think that the original broad base helps. Also, up until the last decade or two our breed has enjoyed a fairly ‘natural’ phenotype. Nothing really extreme although some show ring extremes such as small eye, narrow skull, poor structure and too heavy of a coat are creeping in…..Cancer seems to be creeping into some families as well….but before I digress…
I’ve not heard of this book, but can’t wait to give it a read. Mostly, I am so happy to see the topic of longevity and genetics gaining momentum. Change takes time, but I am an optimist…The pioneering efforts of Dr. Armstrong http://www.dogenes.com/diverse.html are finally getting the attention of breeders. The Bernese breeders are collecting longevity data to help breeders berner-iwg.org/upload/garda/BG%202009%20Final.ppt · PPT file and the Rhodesians include among their studies, one on longevity : http://nextgenerationrrs.tripod.com/study.htm Boxers, Poodles, and doubtless others are starting to look at this and say ‘hey, maybe we can do something about it” Others are looking at all breeds: http://users.pullman.com/lostriver/breeddata.htm
So the good news is the idea is taking shape. I have always done my best to stack the deck in favor of health. Most of the time it works, not always. One strategy I’ve started using: When I seek out a mate for my bitch, I try to seek out a spry OLD male to breed her to. Really. It dawned on me one day that with the old-timer, you’ve had plenty of time to see whatever problems there may be come out of the woodwork in him and his get. The old dog is a survivor of sorts in the companion animal realm anyway. If I can find the set of traits I need in an old boy, if his sperm count is still good and he has fat healthy litters out there – I like to see that.
Recently, I came across an old book: “The Care and Handling of Dogs” by John Lynn Leonard DVM. This book was published in 1928, when the world of the purebred dog was still young. This book is a great glimpse into the past and the photo plates how clearly how the breeds have changed. Much in how we manage dogs has changed for the better but some of the wisdom of the oldtimers has perhaps been lost—For example, in his chapter on care of the mother dog, the author points out that many breed standards are so ‘impossible’ and un-natural, that breeders of his time were advised to keep a larger, coarser bitch – one unsuitable for the show ring ,but with strength and a good pedigree behind her – and breed her to the best show types. He is adamant that the beautiful show type bitches were usually unsuitable as mothers. He preferred to show these off, but depend on the less glamorous ‘Cinderellas of the kennels’ to produce the next generation and keep the line going. Remember that these old breeders did not have that medical means to support a freak show, they HAD to employ common sense. Sometimes I think maybe we don’t need a massive reform so much as a return to plain old good sense and awareness. A thousand small changes in how we manage things could make a huge difference to our breeds. I am not in favor of artifically extending the lifespan of dogs. I would love it for selfish reasons, but IMHO any changes should be done naturally. Nature never did endow them with the lifespan of a human and I expect there could be other, perhaps worse prices to pay.
Further loss of diversity among them.
I remember when the aforementioned ‘healthy’ brood bitch was a strategy employed by some Sheltie breeders. They would keep a few oversize bitches in the program to maintain vigor, reproductive health etc. The world never saw most of these girls, but they produced many a stong vigorous litter it is true. Somewhere along the line this has become a forbidden practice among the show set and it is not uncommon to see all the names in a pedigree, top and bottom all CH’s. —With a corresponding decrease in litter size, weak puppies and singletons.
While this might be speculative Science Fiction more than science fact at this date, I can’t help but think that Kerasote didn’t factor in advancements in science into his 400 years to breed longer lived dogs calculation. It seems short-sighted to me.
I am of the belief that genome manipulation at an affordable price is right around the corner. Decades, not centuries, and from there the rules of selection go out the window and we have cherry picking and grocery style recombination.
A genetic singularity, if you will.
I think it’s close.
Yes, I thought about it too here yeasterday. But it’s not wise and let’s hope the true doggy people won’t go for that direction. We must use our (fundamentally natural -) resources wiser than that and there’s a lot to do, don’t you think ?
It’s said, isn’t it, that small breeds tend to live a bit longer because basically they have relatively large organs servicing a relatively small body. Though all dogs vary individually of course there does seem to be, in terms of the pedigrees, an average for each breed. Our Wheaten terriers (a medium sized breed) often lived for about fourteen years. I believe that our current breed, the shih tzu, follows the small dog tendency (and the tendency of most Tibetan breeds) to be one of the longer lived. We’ll see – or maybe we won’t! Anyway, the thing is that we humans tend to live longer if we have dogs, they say. I feel sure that is true, because of the happy feelings they evoke in us and because of all the healthy exercise we experience from walking them.
Actually our latest shih tzu really did save my life one February when I fainted amongst bushes at the top of a steep hill climb just before it got dark. She stayed by me and barked until the only other two climbers still out there that chilly evening came over to find out what all the noise was about. They subsequently became great friends of me and my wife. That was four years ago.
I guess because they evolved in the himalayas and because of their short strong legs, shih tzus seem surprisingly adept at climbing steep gradients. And to think how I criticised Mary when she came home with this strange non macho looking puppy in her arms…!
I don’t believe we actually have to breed for dog longevity, just breed out all the genetic junk that causes an abnormal number of cancers and other fatal maladies in the domestic dog, and let them live their natural life span (much easier said than done, I know).
As far as neutering a dog goes: I’ve never neutered one of my dogs. But then I like a little more “spark” in my dogs than most people. And I want my males to be males, and to interact with each other as full males. Sure we have a scrap now and then, but one of the joys of owning more than one dog (in my case, way more than one) is observing the dynamics of the pack. Proper training can cure any social problems that arise. Neutering is not a quick fix, and I’ve never seen a behavioral problem solved by neutering. We have an old, fat Lab that is spayed, and I have no argument against spaying.
When I worked as a veterinarian’s assistant it was my responsibility to handle all “problem dogs”, since I seemed to have a way with dogs, and the majority of such animals were neutered males.
Not long ago I was at a sled dog race with M’Loot, my 150 lb. weight-pulling wolf-malamute (just as a spectator, getting him used to the crowds he’d meet at weight-pulling events), and a person with a very large, but effeminate looking Alaskan malamute came up to us and asked why M’Loot had such a massive head and thick limbs compared to his dog. I explained that it was probably mostly genetic, but then said, “You had him neutered young, didn’t you?” Of course he had, at the suggestion of his vet, and that changed how that dog grew and eventually looked when mature.
I just don’t understand it; people neuter their young dogs thinking it will prevent behavior problems, but don’t seem to realize the physical difference it will make in their dog. If they’d just look at the differences in a steer and a bull they’d see what a big difference actually it makes. This won’t make much difference if you have a Chihuahua or some small breed that you expect to be a lap dog all its life, but personally I want my male dogs to be big, rugged “male” dogs.
Of course, they’re may be some sexual behavior problems that would be alleviated by neutering. I’ve personally never seen anything like that amongst my own dogs, I’ve never even had a young dog that humped people’s legs (but I know we all have known dogs that do that). I think this is because all my dogs know they’re dogs, and know how to be a dog; something that’s missing in the lives of a lot of dogs today.
DAC
One major problem w/ intact male dogs is their strong penchant for walk-about–especially if there’s a female in heat anywhere in the vicinity. This is a distinct no-no here in the settled Eastern US, where leash laws are de rigueur. You regularly see and hear stories about dogs being shot simply for straying onto a neighbor’s lawn. And a stock killing stray doesn’t last long at all.
My neighbor’s intact Pyr, Harley, is very friendly w/ people, but invariably attacks other male dogs, intact or no). He regularly finds his way around the many devices his owners have installed to keep him home. Its only his cute factor (and the fact that he never bothers livestock) that has prevented him from being shot.
Another determining factor in the neutering debate here is the glut of dogs in shelters and rescues, the administrators of which, understandably, push very hard for neutering in general, and insist on neutering of all the dogs that they release to clients. If you’re gonna rescue here, which is what we opt for, you’re gonna get a neutered dog. (One plus w/ the shelters is that you can get an adult dog that has had time to mature before being neutered- they usually don’t neuter until someone opts to adopt a given dog.)
Another major down-side to neutering, especially w/ large and giant breeds, is that statistically, neutered dogs have been found to be much more likely to suffer from diseases like dysplasia and bone cancer.
I think it’s safe to say the days of opening the front door and letting your dog out to fend for himself for the day are over. If you’re going to have a dog, especially a big dog, a big yard or kennel is a necessity. I spend a lot of time out in the woods and fields (and on the ice of Lake Champlain when we have it) with my dogs. Yet there is no way I can give them all the outdoor time they need. A big yard where they can play and sleep in the sun is necessary for them to get as much outdoor time as possible without tying up your day.
My mail Irish wolfhound, Branigan will not leave the yard without me, unless it’s to go off into the woods a bit to do his business. Boudicca, the female Irish wolfhound will wander a bit farther, but never out of ear-shot. Grizzly, Branigan’s son out of my Alaskan malamute, Denali will stay in the yard when let out, and not wander for months at a time, but then he’ll eventually take off to visit the neighborhood, crossing a busy highway to do so. So he is never allowed to run free unless I’m outdoors, too. He now knows that when I go to the door to go into the house he must be at my side and come in with me. I no longer even need to call him.
My weight-pulling wolf-dogs stay around the house when I let them out of their kennels (I suspect just so they can get a chance at my free-range chickens, there is no way to make a wolf-dog chicken proof), and will never run off while I’m with them. But I’m sure that if I were to go into the house for five minutes I’d come out to find the chickens slaughtered and the wolf-dog long gone.
Wolf-dogs are beautiful, and physically superior animals (to a domestic dog), but they are not as trainable as a good dog. Grizzly loves to hunt, but even if he’s hot on the tail of a squirrel I can call him back to my side. If one of the wolf-dogs sees a leaf fluttering in the breeze a hundred yards away and decides to investigate, I can call all I want and I might as well be the breeze blowing through the trees as far as the wolf-dog is concerned.
So the rule around our house is that only Branigan, Maggie, the fat, old Lab, and Czara, the Caucasian Mountain Dog are allowed to go outside unsupervised. The wolf-dogs and Denali, the malamute are kenneled outside so there’s no problem with having to get up in the middle of the night to allow one of them to answer the call of nature.
Czara patrols the perimeter around our house about 200 feet out 24/7 if allowed. And even though she’s a physical wreck that waddles around like old Maggie, she is ferocious looking, and will make her way to our (1000 foot long) driveway whenever someone drives up it, and stand in front of the vehicle and challenge it. Since there have been a lot of break-ins of rural homes in our area recently, we believe anyone checking out potential places to rob will see this monstrous dog and decide to go elsewhere. So Czara spends a lot of time outside, but because she is very vocal, we bring her into the house at around 8:00 each night. Even though our closest neighbor is quite a ways away, and claims my wolf-dogs howling doesn’t bother him, I try to not let my dogs bark too much at night (there is no way to stop the wolf-dogs from howling every time a siren goes off less than three miles away).
I don’t believe neutering will stop a wandering dog. We recently had to put down old Philo, a 13 year old Lab, after he had a stroke and couldn’t move. Philo had been neutered young, yet he was the one who taught Grizzly the joys of wandering the neighborhood (he and Maggie came with the relationship I am in). You had to watch Philo every minute he was out or off he’d go. And believe me, even though he was neutered young, he still found females in heat very attractive.
So there you have two examples; an intact Irish wolfhound who won’t leave the yard except to make a quick dash to the woods to poop, unless I’m at his side, and a neutered Lab who just wouldn’t stay home. But two anecdotal examples prove nothing.
I don’t believe the reason for neutering a dog should be “so he won’t wander off when left unattended”, because I don’t believe any dog should be left unattended. Left to their own devices almost any dog will eventually end up in trouble. And even if they don’t, a dog left to experience the world on their own will definitely learn behaviors you do not want them to learn.
DAC
Unfortunately, most dog owners around here, including the neighbor who has Harley, don’t take the time and effort to spend the requisite time w/ their dogs. They think turning them out in a fenced yard is all the exercise they need. Since our Sammie died (I trail-walked him three times a day), I’ve had 3 neighbors (including Harley’s owner) actually ask me to walk their dogs for them. I’ve only done it with the one neighbor’s dogs–they’re both voice responsive and don’t wander. I wouldn’t want to take the responsibility for any damage Harley might do if we encountered another male, and the 3rd neighbor’s male GSD is also untrustworthy w/ strange dogs.