Both of these breeds are pretty intelligent dogs, but they respond to this problem in very different ways.
Some people are commenting that because the border collie is faster in its retrieval, it therefore must be the more intelligent animal.
But look what’s going on here.
The golden retriever is being very judicious and deliberate. It’s that same sort of behavior that would allow a golden retriever to bring in a wounded pheasant or duck without giving it further damage.
Border collies are great Frisbee dogs. Golden retrievers almost always suck at it. They just aren’t as nutty about jumping up and grabbing things.
Border collies have been bred to move things and make things move. If a border collie needs to use its teeth on stock, it is allowed to– though this is faulted in the border collie NASCAR events. Border collies are a very much a sporting dog that have been bred for almost neurotic behavior. Everyone knows that border collies are smart, but they have another side to them, which actually makes them almost entirely unsuitable for general family pets.
I think one of the byproducts of breeding for a soft mouth is that you get a dog that is deliberate in how it relates to the world. This is why golden retrievers, even those from working lines that have a lot more energy than most family dogs, still make very good pets as well as working dogs. This is why both Labrador and golden retrievers and the crosses between them have proven to be the ultimate assistance dogs. They are biddable and intelligent, but they are deliberate and gentle as the work.
Border collies are geniuses, but they have not been bred with the same sort of “nous” or “sagacity” as a retriever.
And I should note here that as much as I complain about how breeding for a particular conformation in bulldogs has essentially ruined them, breeding for extreme behavior in border collies has had almost the same effect.
The border collie is just too much dog for the typical dog owner– and it’s also why I don’t think the solution to the dog fancy’s problems is to adopt the solution that working border collie people have embraced.
A trial that rewards extreme behavior and popular sire selection is just going to produce a dog that is just as genetically compromised as the show dogs and is going to have behavioral problems that are just as questionable as the bulldog’s health problems.
Now, if border collies were bred more like English shepherds, things might be very different. English shepherds are a real farm dog landrace– not a sporting dog at all. They vary in temperament, but many of them are sort of golden retrieverish in temperament. Others are are more like Chesapeake Bay dogs that are docile and intelligent, but they are good guards.
But they are not trial dogs. A better term for an English shepherd would be “generalist collie.” Because they were always used to do a lot of different things on the farm, they were intentionally bred for sagacity.
And border collies might be canine geniuses, but in some ways they are very limited in their utility.
They have almost gone down the bulldog path, but they have gone along a side road.
This is the over-selection for an extreme temperament in order to win a particular kind of sheep dog trial.
American trial Labradors have undergone a very similar selection, which is one reason why some might prefer a golden retriever or British working Labrador for general gun dog work. In the end, the best retrievers are a balance between docility and sagacity and a strong working drive.
Border collies are all drive and biddablity but are often lacking in docility and deliberation.
That’s why they aren’t my kind of dog.
I don’t care how smart they are.
I don’t have a lot of dog experience, and am no expert at all, but it doesn’t seem like all Border Collies are bred that extreme. I know my “mostly” BC doesn’t count, since there is probably some other breed in there, but since I’ve gotten involved in dog agility with her most of the BC’s I have encountered are very active pets, but not neurotic, and do have stable temperaments along with an “off” switch. The two pure bred BCs we see in agility class weekly are a couple of the sweetest dogs imaginable and are quite relaxed when they aren’t running (One is AKC registered and one is ABCA registered). That being said, there are some that I’ve seen at trials who have that look about them where they always seem to be completely “on”, crouched down with ears back scanning and pacing, I would imagine those are the ones you are talking about, and yes they seem neurotic.
My uneducated guess is that there are lines that have been bred for behavioral extremes and lines that haven’t. If I were looking for a pure bred BC, I think I would want to meet their parents; which isn’t much different from when a co-worker of mine wanted to find a Golden Retriever whose parents did not show signs of hip dysplasia.
I am a completely novice dog owner, my first adult dog as a middle aged person being a BC mix which is completely inadvisable, according to knowledgeable people, but she’s a great dog and we have not had any issues beyond what most people have when raising a pup to an adult dog; and we gave her a “job” and that keeps her quite happy and forces me to stay reasonably in shape. What I see around me though are owners of many different kinds of dogs who have problems because their dogs don’t get anything close to the exercise and stimulation they need.
Goldens do have the sweetest personalities imaginable though, a few weeks ago at a trial a friend’s Golden put his big, dirty paws on my shirt wanting some loving and I decided if anyone asked about the spots I was going tell them it’s from WHEN GOLDEN RETRIEVERS ATTACK.
In field-trial bred Labradors, that spectacular flying leap into the water seems to be highly valued. However, the less showy Golden that slips quietly into the water is preferred by many old duck hunters. Guess which one is more often cut up or even impaled by underwater snags, and which one is less disruptive, less obvious Ito incoming birds.
Hmmm., Maggie our AS-cross (I think the other half is GR) is extremely deliberate in the way she takes things and smart as a whip–picks up new commands at the drop of a hat. I’m hoping that teaching her tricks will bring out more of her personality. Unfortunately, teaching tricks is not something I’ve ever excelled at so it’ll be a learning experience for both of us.
I once knew a person who thought that taking treats from the hand GENTLY was the most important trait in selecting a dog or puppy.
You are so right about extreme selection in behavior being almost as bad as over selection in body form.
Although it is far from perfect, my idea is to have decathons or pentalons (speller says that is wrong – you know the athletic events where you add up scores from various events).
For example: dogs could be graded on their 5 highest scores, for whichever of these events they entered and passed:
1 obedience
2 cart pulling
3 fetching
4 show jumping
5 scent matching
6 tracking
7 ball herding
8 dancing
9 dog park manners – playing nice with others
10 tricks
A club could offer various events, and a dog could enter as many as he wanted, only his top scores would count (top 5 scores for pentathon, top 10 scores for decathon), or maybe a minus if the dog DQed on any event.
You may be interested in reading about the AWCA – American working collie association. They give special recognition dogs who title in a variety of different sports or activities. Titles have to be earned in different categories – you can’t just have 10 different agility titles, for example.
http://awca.net/Versatility%20Program%20RevisedMay2013.pdf
Schutzhund is the original triathlon – protection, tracking, and obedience all in one day. I think there is an American Bulldog organization that does a one-day event including weight pull, obedience, and endurance (running beside a bike).
I would love to compete with my dog in a trial like that!
Interesting…when I viewed the video I saw the Golden look at the situation and determine a way to get the ball by knocking it slowly to the edge. I saw the BC use brute force – just jump up and get it…if he’d jumped a little further he could have gotten his feet stuck in the holes of the hammock…not too smart. Border collies are smart no doubt, but that’s not all there is.
Thanks Jana, but my next dog will be under 20 lbs max.
My dog history was mostly larger dogs, but my taste has changed.
‘Horses for courses’ argument. I like both Goldens and BC and love their differences which is what makes the dog world so interesting and in fact I grew up with a Golden Retriever. But then again, the very breed that i would only own now and have for the past 30 years (and I have owned many different breeds and cared for even more when the owners go on holidays) is the Belgian Tervuren. Not the breed for the novice owner, they can be a challenge, but I love their sense of humour and fun loving character and the fact that they would die to protect you. But then again, that may be the very thing that you as a Golden Retriever lover would hate about them. So as mentioned earlier, it’s horses for courses.
My white faced Golden would have gotten that ball and not rocked the hammock like the border collie did. She is incredible to watch out in the field. She will also point when we are out walking to let me know something is there. She has more drive than the older Golden in that video when she is in the field. She acts like an old lady around the house but is like lightening in the field and lake.
I’m also wondering why the video starts with the older Golden under the hammock…
This is very interesting, but as a previous poster pointed out, the video starts with the Golden under the hammock, whereas we can see the ball thrown into the hammock for the BC. It’s hard to evaluate this when the clips are out of context. Was the ball resting in the hammock for some time before the Golden went to the hammock, or was it thrown into the hammock immediately before the Golden went to the hammock?
I am sure there are people whose lifestyle demands BCs and Portuguese Water Dogs. The neighbours behind me have recently acquired a PWD and from my backyard deck I could see the entire family going nuts trying to handle her. I am totally clueless how to handle super-energized pooches. Therefore, I normally resort sympathizing..