Canis lupus hominis

Posted in Uncategorized | 13 Comments

13 Responses

1. on July 6, 2009 at 7:07 pm Pai

   How sad to see that (first) guy’s lab look so miserable. How could you stand having a dog that cringes and hates every minute of the job you’re training it for?

   
   
   • on July 6, 2009 at 7:37 pm retrieverman

     I mean it will work, but it will pass on those characteristics to its offspring.

     The videos show you how to do it.

     It’s not an ideal method– this instinct should be bred for.

     But if it has to be done, the lighter pressure usually works better.

     
     
2. on July 6, 2009 at 8:31 pm flattie-n-Labbie

   I’m not an expert, but I’ve done this myself (not flawlessly) a couple of times and seen it done (right) numerous times. I believe in force fetch (which IMO has little to do with just retrieving itself).

   There are a dozen little things this guy is doing that make this go south, and a dozen little things he could do to make this go well. The good news is that if this is the worst day they have and the dog has pretty good natural drive, all is not lost. (Something tells me they’ve had worse days, though, and worse on the way…)

   If you’re going to try this yourself, watch someone GOOD, in person–and you’ll only know a trainer is good by watching dogs he’s training at a variety of points in their training, from just starting ff to running advanced setups. Same with sending your dog to someone–big-time buyer beware.

   Otherwise, you might end up with this guy. He says some of the right things, but he’s not reading this dog very well.

   
   
   • on July 6, 2009 at 8:41 pm retrieverman

     It’s supposed to be pressure, not excruciating pain. That’s his first problem.

     And he needs to really read some dog body language books.

     I’d hate to work a retriever that worked with that body language.

     I don’t think he’s using the same level of stimulation on his arm as he’s using on the dog. Retrievers can take a lot of pain, and I would think it would take a lot of stimulation to get a Lab to yelp and whine like that.

     
     
   • on July 6, 2009 at 8:43 pm retrieverman

     All you’re doing with a force fetch is teaching a dog to hold and release on command. That’s all.

     Retrieving with style is more about breeding than training.

     
     
     • on July 7, 2009 at 1:42 am flattie-n-Labbie

       “All you’re doing with a force fetch is teaching a dog to hold and release on command. That’s all.”

       Eh. We disagree here. I think it’s that, and some other things–when it’s done right.

       “Retrieving with style is more about breeding than training.”

       I agree–I’ll go a step further. In a retriever, IMO, retrieving with style is ALL about breeding–and not ruining it.

       
       
       • on July 7, 2009 at 1:55 am retrieverman

         I would never use a conditioned retrieve on a normal working dog that was already a natural retriever. That’s one thing I just don’t want to work on. After all, if it is a retriever, it should retrieve because it’s in its DNA. I don’t see the purpose on a normal working retriever. Now, if you’re doing lots of blind retrieves, I can see the utility.

         As Richard Wolters once wrote (and I paraphrase), the force-fetch is a good for trial dogs, but you usually ruin the first two or three you start.

         And that’s I how I generally tend to view it.

         Especially if you’re working a non-Labrador.

         
         
   • on July 6, 2009 at 11:26 pm retrieverman

     Or do what I do

     Don’t do it.

     Only use retrievers that naturally retrieve.

     And forget about trialing them.

     
     
     • on July 7, 2009 at 1:55 am flattie-n-Labbie

       Ah, but the fun about trialing them is ALL about working with retrievers that naturally LOVE to retrieve. My Lab loves birds–birds, birds, birds (and retrieving them). My flattie’s more about the drive–drive, drive, drive (but she’s certainly birdy). Different dogs, but both natural retrievers.

       NO trialer or tester is satisfied with a dog that doesn’t naturally retrieve! Really, seriously.

       No way I personally will forget about trialing/testing my dogs–if they are healthy, it’s almost cruel NOT to–it’s part of who (pardon the anthropomorphising, but I mean it) they are. They need it to be fulfilled.

       They are very lucky working dogs to have their dream job 12 months a year–if only human fulfillment were so easy.

       
       
       • on July 7, 2009 at 2:37 am retrieverman

         Yes, but I don’t want one that runs in straight lines and won’t check the cover for cripples without my direction. I also want a dog that is, at least in this instance, smarter than I am.

         
         
       • on July 7, 2009 at 2:44 am retrieverman

         My first golden was a mixture of the two– very birdy and very drivey.

         But she’d never place in a trial or pass a test.

         She would never put up with the pressure to get her to that place.

         Yet she was an excellent working retriever. She liked her work. She probably would’ve done okay in British trials, especially the old British trials where the gentlemen all came out and watch the dogs bring in the pheasants and hares as they are shot. She was a good water dog– not that she ever retrieved any game from the water. She was a powerful swimmer and very fast in the water. You must remember, I live where there are virtually no waterfowl.

         I just feel that the modern trial and test system selects against that dog into a more highly strung animal that can put up with more physical pressure. I don’t think the old trial system really wanted that. They wanted a super biddable dog with drive and one with a good nose and game finding instincts. I think some of the selection now is for a dog that can tolerate a lot of pressure. And that’s actually not what I want in a working retriever.

         
         
         • on July 7, 2009 at 10:34 am George

           Is that Robert Milner in the video above? I did use his method to force fetch a golden who really didn’t need it except for the fact that I wanted to trial him.

           I totally agree with your above comments on the trial system and trial dogs. I also agree with your comment on wanting a dog that doesn’t need me to do its thinking for him. After all, what does the hunter really want in his working dog?

           
           
           • on July 7, 2009 at 11:29 am retrieverman

             Yes, that’s Robert Milner.

             
             

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