When I think of boxers, I think of loveable clown dogs. I don't associate them with protection dogs at all.
Perhaps I’m just ignorant about the protection dog sports, but I had no idea that people were using Boxers as Schutzhund dogs.
I have some experience with this breed, and none of the ones I’ve known were even remotely protective.
My dog of partial boxer heritage was not even remotely protective. The pure goldens were better watch dogs than she was. She was dog aggressive and aggressive to cats and skunks. Her sire was very dog aggressive, but he was only aggressive to other male dogs. With bitches, he was totally fine, especially if they were in season. He was useless as a watchdog. And he liked kids– a lot.
I was somewhat taken aback when I discovered that people were using boxers for these high intensity protection dog sports. There surely must be strains of boxer where they have the characteristics of Schutzhund dogs, and these must be entirely different strains from the dogs I’ve known.
So if anyone knows about Schutzhund or protection dog sports with boxers, please send me some information. I associate these sports with working-strain GSD’s, Dutch Shepherds, and the Malinois and other Belgian shepherds. The boxers I’ve known lacked the intensity of any of these breeds, and they were all moderate in prey drive, as well as being just a touch stubborn.
(Contrast that with working strain goldens, which are usually very high in prey drive. Also, contrary to what some may believe, I’ve also found boxers to be relatively easy to train and intelligent dogs– so intelligent that they can play stupid. I can tell you that my experience with them is nothing like my experience with an overbred Dalmatian, which was the most difficult dog I’ve ever worked with.)
The dogs I’ve known have all been more into playing than protecting anyone. I never would have thought that there were strains of this breed still being used for protection work. I guess we learn something every day.
My guess, without doing any research, is that the Europeans (especially those in the German-speaking countries) have maintained true protection strains of boxer, just as they have done with Dobermanns, Rottweilers, and GSD’s. And the English speaking countries have bred out some of these instincts and tended to breed for a softer animal. We like dogs that look like they could eat a metal bucket, but we actually want a very soft natured dog.
That’s my guess.
I sent this link to someone I know who does Schutzhund with her Boxer. Hopefully she’ll get it and shed some light on the matter from her experience. Though I was under the impression that any breed of dog could do Schutzhund if it had the right drives and training? The book I have shows a Chessie doing it.
I’m sure a Chessie could do it. Goldens, well, forget about it.
Most of the Boxers I’ve known have been American and British strain dogs. These are very soft natured dogs that would rather play than do any protection work.
I’ve found a site that claims that the European (i.e., German) lines of boxer have the temperament.
http://www.boxersvonbachbett.com/
I suppose they do. I’ve never been around them.
However, I’ve found the breed easier to train than one often hears.
The boxers I’ve know were never this intense.
Hi I would be the someone she knows. I heard and have been told the same thing that american boxers can NOT do schutzhund properly ( Actually this was on Leerburg forum I was told this) and this is pure horse puckie.
Tamarons Ulysses Berg Wanderer is my second American Boxer that is and was used for protection and he comes from a more than proven “show only line”. I think the large problem is that so many american boxer breeders are afraid to let their pups be pups that the pups get corrected for showing any “forward” or “driven” behaviour at such an early age. When all actuality is that I have found that most pups show this behaviour and if it is allowed and nurtured into the proper drives then the boxer pups will be intense. One of my other american training customers had a female that was raised playing roughtly and she too had the right drive to do schutzhund. After attending may German boxer shows and German VPG competitions I have to say that German boxers are no better then american boxers they are not healthier or any more driven to do bite work.
Look for my “you tube account” I will video my boxer working aat the end of this week as well as our german clubs mini schnauzer mascot that has his SchH 1 as well as the 2 Labs that are learning bite work.
Labs doing bite work?
Well, that would be interesting.
I’ve always read that letting a Labrador learn to bite like that makes them prone to hard mouth. I’ve known very few Labs that would even guard.
I’ve known goldens that would bite and growl, but never only when they were possessive over objects (that’s a big issue in golden retrievers now).
My golden won’t even bark when people come to the door.
Have you tried working with the Chesapeake Bay retriever? They were bred for guarding and some them have enough drive to be used as herding dogs.
Well, thanks for clarifying me on the Schutzhund boxers. Now, I’ve not heard of Schutzhund Labradors, which I find even more intriguing.
The obedience person I’ve gone to for problem-solving does police and protection dog training, and he has absolutely trained Labradors for work that requires the same skills as Schutzhund competition. He likes a Lab that has good working instinct.
From what I understand, bite work is about control.
I will, as a special treat, let my Lab grab a bumper and tug. He asks permission.
I prefer to throw a happy bumper, but sometimes the flow of training just doesn’t lend itself to chucking bumpers all over, so this is a release for him for a few seconds after hard work (especially after a blind, which for him is more work and less play than a mark).
I don’t make it a daily habit, but if he’s done a good job he “asks,” I hold the bumper up and say “okay,” and he jumps up and tugs for a a few seconds. I tell him “give,” and it’s over.
A golden retriever could NEVER do Schutzhund. NEVER. They bark but that’s it. The golden boxer not only didn’t bark, but she ran to the door excited that someone came to see her. She was such a friendly dog. However, her greeting behavior involved a smarl, and because she looked so fierce, she scared the meter readers all the time. It took them a while to realize that the main hazard with her was her tail, which would be wagging so hard that it could slap a leg pretty hard.
Goldens will never be able to do protection work. They are very soft mouthed, but they will tug– it’s a very good game for them to learn control. I also do hand games with puppies to teach them about their moths.
I use the command “out” to get the dog to release. The Police Dog word is “aus” — German for “out.”
I’m surprised that Labs have it in them– most of the ones I’ve met have been very inhibited about biting a person.
Chesapeakes are probably a better choice for that sort of work.
I have some rather hair-raising scars on my body core (no, you may not see them) that contradicts the notion that American-bred boxers are all soft goofuses who are just making jokes all the time.
Dog seriously tried to kill me, basically because I let him know I wasn’t going to take any crap from him, then turned my back. Oops. (Any story a trainer tells about his or her scars begins with an account of My Stupid Mistake.)
Not that anyone ought to try to do Schutzhund with such a vicious and unstable dog, but the breed is not bereft of aggressive individuals.
I’ve never met a human aggressive boxer.
The ones I’ve been around were worse watchdogs than golden retrievers, which says a lot. However, if you put any of them with strange dogs of the same sex, they would show aggression.
As I know there are vicious golden retrievers, I’m sure there are a some boxers that could eat a metal bucket.
I know some obedience and agility people who motivate their goldens with tug play, and it hasn’t crossed over into field work in any significant way.
I know an excellent amateur OB trainer who uses rough tugging on a rubber hose as the reward for a job well done. This “toy” is straight out of Schutzhund training. They LOVE that dang 18-inch section of rubber hose, and really bite and pull at it. She’s had an OTCH golden, an OTCH/JH golden, is “co-training” her husband’s CD and rally-titled dog that’s got his SH and is working on a Master title, is training a JH flat-coat to high titles….
This same woman uses other Schutzhund training reward and motivation games and techniques–she believes it brings her dogs’ working drive out, and helps them be motivated to learn and perform. Her results are good.
I’ve thought about learning Schutzhund for fun with both my dogs–the obedience portion looks FAR more fun and practical than AKC stuff (yawn)–but if I were going to do it for real, I’d get a malinois.
I used tug a lot with my dogs.
I guess I didn’t read all the books.
My boxer always barks and shows his teeth when a stranger comes to our door. Even when its somebody he knows, he still barks until he sees them and is sure its a safe person.
That’s more than the ones I knew ever did. They were lousier watch dogs than golden retrievers.
Hello Retreiverman,
Do you know the origins of the Boxer?
it was developed and used as a guard dog by the germans and was in fact the first ever dog to used by the germans as a police dog.
it was used extensively and excelled as a war dog during world war 1.
Still to this day the Germans train Boxers in schutzhund or as it is now called VPG, with many dogs competing at the highest level of sch/vpg 3.
all across europe Boxers are used by security and police and make very good protection dogs and also good tracking dogs.
Sadly this side to the Boxer character has largely been ignored in many countries especially America were it has been bred purely as a show dog and pet and has lost many of its instincts as a natural guard and working dog!
And this is probably why you are so suprised that they are used and trained in schutzhund!
They also have been used as seeing eye dogs for the blind,search and rescue dogs, compete in obedience,agility and even have been trained as a gundog retrievers!
I suggest you check out some you tube videos from european countries especially Germany were it’s normal to see Boxers doing schutzhund …and they are very good at it too!!!
I have actually researched the boxer’s history from the Munich Beer Halls. It’s actually derived from a bull-baiting from the Netherlands called a Brabanter Bullenbeisser (bull-biter) and the Baerenbeisser (bear-biter). They most likely descend from the Alaunt Boucherie dog of Medieval Europe
These dogs were crossed with English bulldogs, which is also derived from the Alaunt Boucherie (sometimes called the “Alaunt butchers.”)
I have a photograph of one of the early boxer bitches, Meta vd Passage, and some others. I actually researched this breed because 1. I had a boxer cross (golden boxer), and 2. I became very interested in why white boxers still exist, even though the standards and breed clubs have tried to discourage people from buying them and breeding them. (It has a lot to do with breeding flashy white markings on brindle and fawn boxers. Flashy is the result of incomplete dominance, so at least some of the pups bred from flashy to flashy will produce white.
In America, we do like the nanny boxer. The ones I’ve been around have all been from American lines. They are all mildly dog aggressive but terrible watch dogs and guard dogs. I’ve met only one that took guarding seriously. The half-boxer I had didn’t bark when people came to the door– the goldens did! All of the ones I’ve known, though, have been very intelligent and easy to train. This is very much counter to the stereotype.
I tried to train my golden boxer to retriever, but she was so well-muscled that she couldn’t swim nearly as well as the retrievers.
She was good at one thing, besides being very docile pet. She was an excellent skunk killer. The first time she did it, I was only ten feet away, and she shook a live skunk to death. As she shook it, it’s noxious juices wound up on my face and clothes. It was not a pretty sight! I thought that would teach her to leave them alone, but no, she actually relished the skunk killing.
If you’re into these sorts of breeds and a fascinating (and well-researched) theory on their origins, check out this website: http://bttbab.com/
After Charles I was beheaded and the Parliamentarians won the Civil War, the Royalists moved en masse to the Southern Colonies of the Carolinas and Georgia, where they brought with them the old style farm bulldog (the direct descendant of the Alaunt Boucherie).
These dogs were used to handle livestock and catch them, for in the early days of British agriculture, fences weren’t that good. Further, most small farmers let their stock range a common grazing land– be it the forest or the fields. There was a law dating to Magna Carta that gave commoners the right to graze their cattle and pigs in royal forests. So to hand this free range livestock, they used these farm bulldogs. From that practice caim bull-baiting, and then these dogs were “improved” into the show bulldogs we know today. However, in the American South, these farm bulldogs still lived on.
Yes the ancestors of the boxer were basically baiting and hunting dogs from all over europe and there is much speculation that the Alaunt was the result of exported baiting dogs from England to Spain, as there are English records of dogs being used for baiting from 1154 what is of no doubt is the english bulldog was the ultimate baiting dog and exported all over europe and is the ancestor of many modern and ancient breeds all over the world.
The Boxer is nothing more than a refined german bulldog and the arguments of what went into the making of this breed is varied and wide and i would think many types were used from all over europe!
I was more reffering to the modern Boxer dogs devopment as a recognised breed, most breeds of dogs in the past were described by their use rather than their looks and because of the brutal environments a form of natural selection came into play and types were formed best suited to those tasks,its only since around the turn of the 19th century that dogs have been bred to a breed standard and become refined, classified and recognised by their looks.
Therefore the development of the the Boxer by the germans was that of a guard and working dog used by police and the german army, but being of a smart appearance was also widely seen at breed shows all over germany.
For many years this was the role of the Boxer before he became recognised around the world as show dog and pet.
The original Boxers had no white and were of solid colour either red/fawn or brindle, the introduction of flashy markings was purely a result of show breeding.
The Boxer in germany is still bred as a working dog even though its also a recognised show dog and has been for many years. In Germany all guarding breeds including the Boxer have to pass a ZTP or suitability for breeding test , which includes, temperament test,endurance test,defence test,obedience test,health tests and a check against the breed standard.
Boxers in germany have attained many high level working,tracking and endurance titles and are considered very much a working breed along side the shepherds and rottwielers etc
The original Boxer was said to have a great love for water too and the ones i have seen that love water are indeed very strong swimmers and as guarding breeds main job is to catch bad guys it would be a poor dog that wouldnt enter water to stop one, in fact some tests include catching the criminal across a pond or lake!
Many of the things you say about the Boxers that you have experienced are probably true but they are not correct and not how the true Boxer shoud be, they are in fact the result of show breeding were the working temperamnet has been lost, working temperement has to be bred for like anything els and if its ignored you lose it! ….Although wherever or however the boxer is bred whether as a protection dog or pet they always maintain a sense of humour and are a joy to be around!
There is a kennel in the USA that does have a sch 3 Boxer dogs and employ them as a Police K9’s….. German bloodlines!
http://www.boxersvonbachbett.com
What is seen as an unusual use for Boxers in USA is seen as normal in Germany and many Europen countries and has been since day one, the europeans have never lost sight of the dogs original purpose and seek to activily maintain it within the breed.
That’s very good to know.
The only thing is they have a higher muscle to fat ratio that if run a boxer against a working bred retriever, the retriever will be a faster swimmer and can hold itself in the water for longer. I’ve seen boxers swim, and they are much better at it than one would assume– the English bulldog is known to be a terrible swimmer. I’ve not personally seen one that can swim as well as a retriever, but I’m sure they can swim better than show-bred golden retrievers!
In America, we’ve turned the boxer in the “not exaggerated” version of the English bulldog.
I think the key is what they were bred to do, a retriever was/is bred to fetch game and quite often through water and in varying climates and conditions and i have no boubt working retrievers will swim better than Boxers do, for a start they have a better water proofed insulated coat, which protects against cold and keeps them bouyant.
Likewise a retriever would not be better at protection work than a working bred Boxer, the true Boxer is one very tough, brave animal bred down from ancient blood sporting dogs, pound for pound one of the stongest dogs out there, very impervious to pain and very agile and are quite willing to defend with their life.
There are always exceptions to the rule and someone will no doubt say their Boxer swims better than a retriever or they have a personal protection retriever thats better than any Boxer!
But generally speaking both breeds will excell in the tasks they were bred to do!
I think show breeding has a lot to answer for as they ignore the original purpose/character of any breed, the look of any breed is just one aspect, important yes ,but not to the extent it cannot perform the job it was bred to do.
Is a sheepdog a sheepdog because it looks like one or because it rounds sheep?
I couldn’t agree more– especially about the show people.
This is the boxer cross I had.
http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2008/12/07/my-golden-boxer/
She had a lot of characteristics in common with some depictions of the Baerenbeisser dogs of Germany, the St. John’s water dog, and the Cao de Castro Laboreiro, which was left in Newfoundland by Portuguese fishermen, where it was one of the ancestors of the St. John’s water dog, which is the ancestor of the extant retriever breeds.
She was not a good swimmer, at least compared to the goldens she was living with. She was a terrible watch dog. She was mildly dog aggressive, but she had strong prey drive. Strong enough that she would kill skunks, which most dogs just don’t do.
The dog at the bottom looks very much like her:
http://www.molossermania.com/brd/b/b012/history.html
It’s interesting to see undocked boxers. They have the longest natural tails of any dog I’ve ever seen.
Hiya, well im from the UK, and i believe all dogs have the ability to do schutzhund training and be good at it! I have 5 boxers all temperament tested as excellant plus so the highest you can get, sociable with people, dogs, children and all other animals! I breed boxers and my dogs all come from quality conformation show lines BUT are all shuzthund trained and excellant at it too. To be good at this sport the main thing you need to have is CONTROL and your dog to see you as LEADER which im afraid to say most pets do not have. Boxers do have a natural prey drive and ive never known a boxer to not like tug of war which is the same principle as the ”game” of attack. My girls would (like most pets) let any stranger in my house without showing any aggression. What im basically trying to say a dog good at scutzhund is a dog that knows its place in the pack, and has respect for an owner. I breed for show quality dogs so its a myth that you have to breed from a working like NONE of my girls are but they excel in conformation (i have 3 champion girls), agility, obedience AND schutzhund!!
I don’t think golden retrievers should be used for it.
And as soon as people start to breed them for it, you will lose that breed’s character.
I don’t think goldens should be used or bred for any work that involves biting people. We have issues with aggression in this breed, and aggression is a major fault for their normal working behavior.
Hello Donna,
Are you from the UK and now live in America ?
If you still live in the UK would love to know more about you and your Boxers.
Boxerman
Donna,
I have to disagree with you on the point regarding breeding for working ability!
I think the one glaring reason that proves this; there is no working breed of dog “ever” that has been bred based entirely on looks!
Working breeds evolve into a type over a period of time, they are selected solely on their ability to perform a certain task and because certain traits work better than others then those traits become common!
“Form follows function” After many generations of selection a breed type forms and they become recognizable by their looks, we all know what a border collie looks like for instance.
Because of this evolution into a type people get drawn to a certain breed because of the way it looks, it then gets its “fans” and before long it becomes an officially recognised breed and then enters the show world!
Once this happens this chosen breed is no longer being bred for its original task but is being bred to a breed standard this may include a brief description of breed character but that’s all! It is not essential for the dog to perform the task it was bred to do in order to become champion. Therefore over a period of time breeding dogs in this way means the original purpose of the dog will become diluted and eventually lost!
There will always be individual members of the breed that will still be good at the original task but at what level compared to its working ancestors? Also I would think that if these show bred animals do retain working ability it is more by luck than design and also the ability of the trainer would come into play, there are some excellent dog trainers that can make any breed of dog perform tasks to a high level.
But this has no bearing on the “breed” overall and I would lay good money that you wouldn’t buy a Boxer for the show ring without checking the pedigree for champions or at least good show bloodlines as the chances of you finding a show champion from a backstreet breeder is very low…. Likewise working ability has to bred for too and maintained by breeding from proven working stock!
Boxerman
You are exactly right on this issue.
Working conformation is important, but it is very different from show conformation. Usually, it allows for a greater diversity in type than the show conformation standards.
Working dogs can only be bred from stock that is actually worked.
You cannot produce working dogs if all you breed for is conformation.
It doesn’t matter what you’re breeding– goats, race horses, or working dogs– you cannot breed fully functional animals unless you are breeding for function. I know that sounds like a tautology, but as a tautology, it must be said a lot, because many people think you can figure out the quality of a working animal simply by looking at it.
Yes i totally agree , I think there are a lot of people out there who’s hearts rule their heads and are unwilling to find out or admit the truth about their chosen breed.
It is perfectly understandable as we all love our chosen breed and want to defend it’s reputation at every opportunity and somtimes we are blinded by loyalty.
The truth hurts and so we would rather ignore it and pretend it wasnt so!
I love my breed but am trying hard to stay objective about its failings and trying to improve especially in the area of working ability.
I have found out so much through looking at other working breeds and this helps focus on the pros and cons of others as well as my own dogs and i have definitely discovered you have to breed in the desirable traits and away from undesirable traits in all aspects of dog breeding and none more important than breed character.
For i feel a dog “is” its character for instance if my Boxer acted exactly like a border collie, to me it wouldnt be a Boxer but a Collie that simply looked like a Boxer.
Combining a breeds character with true working ability is a very difficult thing to acheive but not impossible. This in turn makes the breeding of such dogs a much slower one compared to show breeding as you have to wait such a long time for the training to pay off and for the dog to prove itself in competition. I know of show champions that are 18 months old, this would be impossible for a working dog as you cannot start to compete until 18 months old and in my opinion a Boxer is not fully developed physically or mentally at 18 months old.
So i would say its more of a Myth that you can produce top working dogs from show bred stock than it is the other way around!
Boxerman
Now you seem very set in your ways now my dogs are not ”true working dogs” we do the sport for mental stimulation, and increasing the leadership skills within the dog/human relationship. I dont compete in many trials simply because i do not have enough hours in the day to show in conformation, obedience and Schutzhund. But i have worked alongside my trainer since all of mine were 8 weeks old (apart from my rescue) and all are good at the sport even the rescue. Now if you want to talk good ”top class” working dogs then im pretty sure mine wouldnt compare to a dog that that is a solid working dog BUT only 1 – 2 pups out of a litter from working lines make it to such standard. I have done the occasional mini trials with my eldest and she has been placed in 2 out of the 4 we have done with her so she cant be that bad to me ALL my dogs are good at the sport and has taught me leadership and my dogs control and are now of a solid temperament i would trust my dogs in any given situation with anyone or anything!.
I know you seem to disagree but i really believe that all you need is the respect from your dog to get it to do what is asked. So many people have dogs and do not see the problems they have due to the fact its been treated like a loved ”baby”, my dogs are my life but they are treated like dogs, training seems to stop (if even started) once past a puppy or go to 1 class a week and expect a highly trained dog. Training is for life, once you have established a role you stick with it and maintain it people dont do this. I know so many people with dogs who have issues in the home or outside on walks and its all down to the fact that the dog does not see you as leader. You have good leadership and your dog can be whatever you want it to be, as i said before maybe not a top working dog in the forces but anyone can have a highly trained dog that you can control in ANY given situation and a dog that is good at Scutzhund!!!
I agree true working lines are probably alot easier to train and i agree that the breeds have changed over time but i certainly do not agree that you have to have working lines it cant just be a coincidence i have 5 boxers none from any working lines that have proved worthy doing the sport it takes time and dedication just as it would with a working line.
hi donna great to hear you work all your boxers and show them i know its very hard to do both,i,ve got a young male boxer who passed his bh in jan at bolton schutzhund club what club do you go?
Yes the reason I am set in my way of thinking is because it has been proved to me time and time again when working, training dogs and breeding dogs, dogs that come from true working lines make better working dogs than show bred ones, it’s a fact! Simply because of genetics!
Boxers were bred down from dogs that were for centuries used purely for work not kept as pets or bred for the show ring, life was tough for humans so they couldn’t afford the luxury of keeping any animal just for fun as we do now, all animals were kept for a purpose namely work.
Then in the early years of the pure bred Boxer (as we know it) was still largely employed in a working capacity being used by the police and the Army and at one stage outnumbered the German shepherd in this role.
So taking all of this history into account it is hardly surprising that the ability to work still lies within the Boxer and if somebody takes the time and effort to train them they will find out just how capable the boxer is.
But there is a very big difference in levels of ability regarding working dogs, although you may have some well trained boxers I would make a guess that they wouldn’t be able to make the grade as a police dog or to be able to take top honours at the European Sch championships, in order to reach such heights not only takes time, excellent training and dedication it also takes an excellent working dog bred from proven working stock.
You have to actively breed in true working drive because the dogs have to have the desire to work when the going gets tough and its here most promising dogs fail even working bred dogs, so what chance would a show dog have in these circumstances?
The best trainers in the world cannot achieve anything if the dog refuses to work, so achieving excellence is a combination of man and dog.
My problem with show breeders is they take a working breed of dog and then never trial or test these dogs in the task they were bred to do, but still like to take claim to the breed’s superior working ability?
To me if you breed any working breed of dog but never breed them for working then you have missed the point of dog breeding entirely, after all there are many other breeds of dog out there to choose from that are purely pets why pick on working breeds and dilute them and change the perception and looks of that animal until it no longer bears any resemblance to the dog it once was?
I think the proof stands up; in Germany they still retain the working ability of all the breeds in the working group, and some of these dogs are also champions in the show ring, they have the priority in the right order, health, temperament, working ability come before confirmation.
The desire to compete and work these animals in sport is still strong and anyone wanting a true working dog will look to Germany and other European countries to import dogs from, if as you say show bred animals still can do the job they were bred to do why would there be a need to import???
Just ask any military or police force where they get their dogs from I guarantee it won’t be from show kennels!
Boxerman
So I will agree that dogs that are bred in working lines are going to be superior at schutzhund compared to American conformation lines. It’s not impossible to do schutzhund with an american bred boxer though. I would compare it like this. If you have two kids that do math, and one of them loves to do math and the other doesn’t. Which one is going to do better at it? Both have the ability to do it but one is going to excel at it because it wants to do it. In schutzhund their is a huge difference in a dog that has the drive to work and a dog that does what you ask of it. That’s why in litters they temperament test and like Donna said your lucky if you have a puppy maybe two that litter that have the drive to excel in the sport. That’s not to say you can’t build drive in the dog and have it do schutzhund though. But there is a huge difference in pickup basketball games and the NBA. Another kennel in the United States that is working on bringing back the working boxer is http://www.bigmacboxers.com/.
Same way with retrievers– the show dogs generally aren’t as good as the performance bred dogs.
i also live in the uk and work my boxer in schutzhund,my dog is from show lines but as alot of prey drive,from my experience boxers are as good working dog as any other breed,it baffles me that people in the uk and usa still think the only thing boxers are good at is family pets,my dog is now 16 months and doing is bh in jan,would like to no were the lady donna trains her boxers in uk i no theres very few being train in schutzhund in the uk its great to hear theres a few more.
Hi Neil,
love to know where you train and what part of UK you are in ?
hi boxerman i train at bolton schutzhund club as far as i know there is only 2 boxers doing schutzhund in the uk,the only thing ive found hard with doing schutzhund with boxers is the bite work or you could says is grip i think because boxers can,t open there mouth as wide as other working breeds but still working on it everything else is great bark and hold,tracking,ob,is as good as any other breed at club around the same age,hes doing bh end of jan.dogs name duxsara secret service hes on workingdogs eu
http://www.youtube.com/user/markchase1?feature=mhw5
http://web.mac.com/markchase1/Site/About_Me.html
http://www.silasvomokelerforst.de/
http://www.vom-okelerforst.de/
http://www.usboxer.org
http://www.nbk.org
first boxer titles in america 1982 aja time loves a hero schH I
first schH III IPO III in america victor v colber eck
first female schH I in america godiva v d valhalla
first ring brevet dirk v d valhalla
Love it.
Good to see these dogs doing something useful.
I see that you’ve imported a lot of them.
Most of the ones I see here are glorified English bulldogs– sweet, soursmug, and not very protective.
I came across this e-mail conversation just today!
Be assured, retrieverman, that boxers are marvelous working dogs, if conveniently trained. – In Germany, before getting the official authorization for mating, one of the mating partners MUST have successfully passed the ZTP, which includes biting. In 2010, 2723 boxers took part in working trials.
By the way, many countries do not homologize a beauty championship, if the boxer has not successfully passed at least IPO 1 . The FCI title International Beauty Champion can only be conferred if the boxer has won two CACIBs in two different countries and has successfully passed at least IPO 1.
The boxer is a working dog (end an excellent guardian) and breeders will never neglect this aspect…if they want their dogs become Beauty Champions….
The ones I’ve known in America are very placid dogs.
Helga is right and so is Retrieverman because you both know two different types of Boxer and see them as normal.
But the type Helga knows is the correct way a Boxer should be and has always been since its early days in europe
The type retreiverman knows is a show bred example bred for looks first and the pet trade second and not bred for working at all.
both types have their fans but i know which one is true to its origins and which one i prefer.
Boxerman
Well, my boxer ist not exactly a “placid” dog but rather vivid. But she is very patient and trusts any human being.
She adores children, especially babies with whom she is very tender.
She is a wonderful working dog with a tight grip into the sleeve, but when she meets the trainer outside the training grounds she is just happy to meet him but will never bite.
By the way, she is a beauty champion of 3 European countries and International Beauty Champion (FCI).
There really is no reason why show dogs should not be working dogs.
Helga,
There is no reason why working dogs cannot be show dogs but not the other way around.
In countries like america and uk show dogs are bred purely for looks and the dogs are not tested for working ability as they are in europe.
Show breeding in these countries has replaced the reason why dogs are bred at the detriment of original purpose.
So many working dogs ruined by show breeding the list is endless, they may look nice but thats all folks !
show people,will argue thay have improved the breed but have they? beauty is only skin deep.
A show champion is a champion of a judges opinion based on a breed standard a working champion is a champion of ability at the job it was bred to do.
how many show border collies can win at sheep herding…answer 0 in fact now already there is a distinction between show bred border collies and working sheepdogs …. two seperate breeds now in a very short time scale.
proving that if you breed for looks alone you lose working ability.
Boxerman.
Of course, you are right, boxerman, and that is the reason why most of the European Countries’ Championships are only validated if the dog, besides the necessary beauty awards, has a “working title” as they call it, which must be at least IPO1. – Thus, for the time being, the boxer in Continental Europe is still within the original German Standard. – The problem is that some countries give Champion titles without working and quite a lot of breeders simply do not have the necessary time to train a dog. They then make their dog a Champion of the Country X…and one of these days we shall have to breeding lines in Continental Europe, too.
Helga,
its nice to agree and usually people from europe have the best understanding of what is a true Boxer.
Here in the uk we only breed for looks alone with very little health testing compared to Europe, although the Boxers health is important to breeders here, health tests are not compulsory.
We do not have the ztp or require a dog to have a working title to become a Champion,
I often ask the question yes he is a show champion but what can he do?
To breed for looks alone is a big mistake it just leads to a small gene pool overexagerated features and a placid non functional character
Boxerman