Ch. Tiverton Victor
Black Gipsy
Tiverton Beauty
Tiverton Victor and Tiverton Beauty were owned by Samuel Darbey. His kennel was situated in Tiverton, Devon.
Samuel Darbey and Tiverton Victor
Now, from my reading of the history, the curly coat is the oldest standardized strain of retriever. It had to standardize early on, simply because its coat won’t withstand cross-breeding.
The black dog in this video is a Labrador/curly cross (the other one is the Australian derivative of the curly called a Murray River curly-coated retriever). You can see that the black dog looks very much like a Labrador:
The breed was associated with the West of England, especially Dorset and Devon, which are associated with the English cod fishery that once fished off the Grand Banks of Newfoundland. The city of Poole, where the first St. John’s water dogs were believed to have been imported, is in Dorset. (Devon and Dorset are adjacent counties.)
Now, two theories about the origins of the curly have been posited.
One suggests that this breed is the ancestral retriever from which the St. John’s water dog descends. The fishermen from Dorset and Devon brought these dogs to Newfoundland, and there, they bred with other dogs to found the St. John’s water dog.
I have some issues with this theory. Historical records of black water dogs probably can be found from that area. However, they are most likely English water spaniels. Perhaps the local strain of water spaniel was a black dog, and it may have played some role in the St. John’s water dog’s development.
However, the only other really retriever-like water spaniel (if it can be called that at all) from Britain is the Tweed water spaniel. It definitely had St. John’s water dog in its background, and Richard Lawrence wrote in 1816 in The Complete Farrier and British Sportsman that the Tweed water dog had been improved with “Newfoundland” blood. This breed was said to look like a liver, yellow, or tawny curly-coated retriever, which is most likely why it was such an important breed in the foundation of the golden retriever.
It is very likely that the curly is a similar dog. However, it was bred to be black, or darker liver, rather than lighter liver, tawny, or yellow. The similarities are too great to suggest that the curly developed independently, and I find it too much of a stretch to suggest that this is the ancestral retriever. I think it is much more likely a derivative of the local strain of English water spaniel crossed with the imported St. John’s water dog.
It is possible, but I am skeptical.
I wish I had more definitive answers, but the curly is mostly an enigma compared to the golden, Labrador, and flat-coated breeds. Although the curly became popular as a show dog early on, it really doesn’t have the really easily traced history that those other British retrievers have. (Those dogs really have me spoiled. After all, most breed histories are far more nebulous.)
I have several questions about this breed.
1. Are they derived from the St. John’s water dog or an ancestor of the St. John’s water dog?
2. How exactly did their coat develop? I can’t think of a single crossbreeding that produces dogs with a coat like this.
3. What is their working style like compared to the other British retriever breeds?
4. They are said to be similar to the Chesapeake Bay retriever. How do they compare to that dog?
I know the Murray River curly’s history far better than I know the history of the English curly, so if anyone knows anything about the curly-coated retriever’s history, please let me know.
Scottie, reference your request for info on the CFZ blog. I went to Tiverton museum today and although the two old ladies there didn’t know anything, they did give me a telephone number and email address for the senior archivist/curator. I won’t be going to Tivvy again for a while, probably not till the week before Christmas, so let me know if you would like his contact details (don’t want to post them here). He is available on Mondays and Wednesdays only though. When I do go again, I will pop into the library and have a scan through their records, and hopefully their fiche to.
It is only a small place so I may have to book in advance, and depending on the availability of the readers etc. I may or may not find much information directly.
Just wanted to let you know :)
Just e-mail me at retrieverman1@yahoo.com.
1. It would not be surprising if the Curly antedated the St. John’s dog, but there is (as far as I know) no proof of such; only tradition that the Curly is the oldest of the British retriever breeds.
2. It is quite possible, even probable, that the Curly’s coat is due to a singular mutation, not to crossbreeding of any sort; also possible that it is a unique combination of short and curled coat with the smooth-faced coat pattern. Some of the water spaniels show somewhat similar coat type/pattern, but the unique thing about the Curly coat is the tightness of the curl (hard texture desired) and the lack of feathering or longer hair.
3/4. Old Curlies were likened to the Chesapeake or Bay Dog in that they were the workingman’s (or poacher’s) dog and served as more than merely a retriever. Many were “tough” dogs. Modern Curlies have a more moderate temperament, and sometimes a quite wicked sense of humor!
Curlies work completely different from other retriever breeds. A little bit more about how they work:
Link 1: http://www.gundogmag.com/2010/09/23/gundog_breeds_gdcurly_0206/
Link 2: http://www.gundogmag.com/2012/07/10/breed-profile-the-curly-coated-retriever/
Link 3: http://www.curlydk.dk/
(The next day they all participated the dog show ;) – dual purpose dogs ;))
I had no problems with anything like being hard mouthed, I have read today for the 1st time that they (they=ccr-s I met) rat (no drive to do that, or to chase anything, they do not help to retrieve run away ducks ;) – this dogs are steady with capital S; but they put everything into their mouth, more it stinks, the better…), they do not kill the game in any way (if it is ethical or not), they do not have the labrador/golden/flatcoat… problems with steadiness etc. But they are slow(er) (in hard conditions (for example, if it is in the air 1 molecule of smell the dog is looking for and if the dog is too fast, it can miss that molecule…) curlies are the best dogs), so labrador trainers have “problems” with them, because they do not know the breed, its way of working… and they want them to work as labradors :( No go ;)
I read once here, that all nowadays curlies are big… a bit wrong. There are several rather small dogs, including mine ;)
And they are not guard-dogs, but can be good watch-dogs ;)
However, I really like to read your blog, even if I do not agree with everything, it makes me think about the issues and am hardly waiting for your new retriever posts…
Best regards, Barbara
Any dog can learn to rat. Coppinger is full of crap when he says they are stuck in some kind of developmentally delayed phase that keeps them from killing.
I had a hard driving golden retriever that would fetch rather than eat, but she could kill groundhogs and squirrels.
Please do not assume that your dogs as they are right now, which is just a vestige of their past, are exactly like they were 100 years ago.
These dogs were mainly owned by keepers, who did have to do a lot of ratting around pheasant feed. They used whatever dog they had, including these retrievers.
BTW, the only ones in the US are giant. Not as big as pet some pet Labradors.
There is a reason why this breed fell from favor. I think it had a lot to do with class. The wavy/flat-coated/Labrador/golden retriever complex was always a gentleman’s dog. The water spaniel/retriever type was almost always used by people in the employ of the gentlemen.
And the other reason is that they just weren’t a good fancy show dog. The flat-coated/golden retriever/wavy-coated retriever complex always was.
They have to be better at guarding than golden retrievers are. Half of them won’t even bark at a person when they arrive at the door.
I agrre with everything, just:
In Europe guard and watch dog is not the same. Difference between guard and watch dogs: “Both guard dogs and watchdogs bark loudly to alert their owners of an intruder’s presence and to scare away the intruder. The watch dog’s function ends here” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guard_dog)
Curiles can be just watch dogs, for guard dogs they are big “asses”. Curlies step back when stranger approaches (are keeping the safe distance if they do not trust the stranger) ;) Yes, goldens are “asses” not just as guard dogs, but also as watch dogs (also labradors, maybe flats).
But here the goldens have the highest number of bites… (according to the statistics of reported bites, which has few faults by my opinion; mixes not counted; http://www.dominvrt.si/clanek/trend/nevarnih-pasem-ni-nevarni-so-lastniki.html). I find that pretty concerning.
None of our retrievers ever killed anything, but they were never thought to do that. And yes, you can teach any dog pretty everything, but this is not it (if the wanted property is in the genes… voila).
Maybe the small (What is actually small for you in cm?) curlies are not shown in USA?
Best regards, Barbara
Your golden retrievers are largely derived from the worst stock imaginable.
There are some issues with aggression in some lines (mostly imported from Europe).
Our working golden retrievers look and act like this: https://retrieverman.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/golden-retriever-with-duck.jpg
Large n studies on dog bites in this country, show that they are one of breeds that is least likely to bite a person:
You can’t make a lot of generalizations about golden retrievers based upon the ones you see in a particular area. You can’t with Labradors either. Those are two of the most widely distributed breeds in the world. Both breeds have quite a bit of genetic diversity, so you just can’t say they are a certain way. Those two breeds are bred for many, many things now.
You can, however, make these claims with breeds that have low genetic diversity and are quite uncommon and aren’t being widely used.
So if you’ve seen a few tollers or curlies, you can make generalizations about them. There just isn’t enough diversity in either breed to make significant differences.
Curlies are shown in the US, and the standard allows them to be the tallest of all retrievers. http://www.akc.org/breeds/curly_coated_retriever/index.cfm
68.58 cm is the maximum height.
I’m sure if you take a curly-coated retriever out ratting with terriers. It will rat.
There are no “genes” for ratting. If a dog sees other dogs engaging in predatory behavior, they’ll join right in, regardless of what breed it is. That’s why so many dogs become sheep killer. They see another dog doing it and they join them.
It’s not complicated. It’s simple BS that a dog “won’t have the genes to kill.” Killing is a learned behavior. All they have to do is learn how to enact their inherited predatory motor patterns, and the only way they learn that is through doing it with another dog.
As to Goldens being watch dogs– I had one years ago that gave a very good imitation of a Doberman if anyone approached the car he was in by himself. One time at a campground he escaped from the car while we were away, but stayed right there keeping watch. Fellow at site next door said that the dog lay next to the car, got up every few minutes to circle the car and heck out the area, then lay down again. This for more than an hour until we returned.
Would he have backed up his threats? Fortunately, no one ever challenged him. If I was present, he never did his “Doberman act” and was typical lovely Golden.