More British shoot footage

on February 9, 2010 at 8:45 pm Bill

Cool videos. That is the British equivalent of a Southern USA dove shoot. Nice for people to see cockers doing their work.

Labs sure are more handsome though.
- on February 9, 2010 at 8:56 pm retrieverman
  
  It”s very similar to a dove hunt.
on February 9, 2010 at 10:36 pm Bill

I am somewhat of an Anglophile, but it’s bit of a shame the about the elitist culture that surrounds shooting in the UK. (but God, the Purdy and Holland & Holland double guns are beautiful).

Did you notice that this was a Gamekeepers shoot? They shoot at the end of the season, after the fields have seen several drives. It’s like in Caddy Shack, when the sign at the pool says: “Caddy Day Today: 1:00 to 1:15″
- on February 9, 2010 at 11:07 pm retrieverman
  
  That elitism is bad for hunting in general.
  
  If you have a lot of people whose families lost their land so that rich people could shoot, you’re going to find a lot of people complaining about hunting. That’s where the anti-hunter sentiment in the UK comes from, and that’s why it’s (relatively) so weak here.
  
  Robert Burns wrote a poem about sport shooting that captures that sentiment:
  
  However, if you can create within society a culture that views hunting as a necessity to manage natural resources and as a way of reconnecting with nature, you can preserve it. That’s the challenge that exists right now.
  
  And we’re winning here.
  
  They aren’t doing so well in other countries.
- on February 9, 2010 at 11:08 pm retrieverman
  
  Yes. This is a Gamekeeper’s shoot.
  
  This was filmed relatively recently, and this is at the end of the shooting season.
on February 10, 2010 at 1:37 am Bridget

Thanks for these great videos. They were really fresh – filmed late Jan. this year.

It’s hard to remember how different the hunting cockers look compared to the show type –
that’s because they are so rarely to see.
GREAT work of the dogs, enjoyable.
on February 10, 2010 at 1:40 am Bridget

Ps. They seem to have no snow at all in Scotland.
That’s because we’ve taken it all. We have got nearly 70 centimeters of snow this winter, says the officials – and it’s snowing again.
- on February 10, 2010 at 1:46 am retrieverman
  
  It’s been snowing here off and on since before Christmas. We normally get 30 inches of snow (11.8 cm).
  
  But I’d say we’ll have twice that or more when this winter is over.
  
  Scotland did get some snow, and I embedded a video of these same dogs in a big snowstorm in Scotland.
on February 10, 2010 at 8:52 am labpack

Retrieverman, thank you, great videos! Fond memories of my several visits to Scotland and the two U.K. Retriever Championships I watched up there. :)

Ps. Pls, may I correct Bridget, the cocker in the clip is called a working one, not hunting…
- on February 10, 2010 at 12:20 pm retrieverman
  
  In America, we call these working strain dogs “field line.”
  - on February 10, 2010 at 10:36 pm labpack
    
    Yes, you do. In the U.K. the field trialling dogs are called field/trialling lines and the picking up/flushing dogs are of working lines/strain.
    Some famous stud dogs do appear in both of the lines’ pedigrees… :)
    - on February 10, 2010 at 11:17 pm retrieverman
      
      In America, we’re getting a split between real working lines and a trial lines, although I’m sure there are people who will attack me on this one.
      - on February 11, 2010 at 3:07 am flattie-n-Labbie
        
        I won’t attack, but I will respectfully add what I have seen.
        
        There might be some field trial studs and dams whose pups don’t see much hunting–they are mostly sold to full-time competitive trial homes. But in the next generation or two–absolutely, a good deal of those pups go to hunting homes. I think far more working dogs than not have field trial lines only a generation or two back–at least on the stud side.
        
        That’s not to say that there aren’t hunters who know and admire a hunting buddy’s untitled dog from untitled working lines, and if a litter is available get a really, really nice dog with no titles anywhere. It certainly happens, and it’s certainly not rare.
        
        But I personally haven’t seen a “split,” per se. Maybe I don’t get around enough, I don’t know.
        
        Now, there are some pretty big kennels that make some good money claiming there’s a split, and that they’re on the better working side of it… And more power to them, if they think they’ve got the better dog. The couple of dogs I’ve met from those kennels didn’t seem like anything different in looks, style, drive, or temperament than other dogs. JMHO.
- on February 12, 2010 at 12:43 am Bridget
  
  I don’t get your point, for they are called “hunting cockers” as well.
  
  Also, in Swedish, those cockers are called “jaktcockers”, which I think I don’t have to translate in english for anyone here.
  - on February 12, 2010 at 12:49 am retrieverman
    
    In German, it is Jagd Cocker.
    - on February 12, 2010 at 2:01 am Bridget
      
      Also Edward Martin (a gun dog “guru”) uses the term “Hunting Cocker”.
      So may I, too, please?
      
      He has made training videos about how to train a hunting cocker – it is a bit more complicated than with the basic retrievers, those who only retrieve, don’t flush:
      
      http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VHS-PT-2-HUNTING-COCKER-SPANIEL-TRAINING-WITH-E-MARTIN_W0QQitemZ330403325933QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_DVD_Film_TV_Videos?hash=item4ced92a7ed
      - on February 12, 2010 at 2:05 am retrieverman
        
        You can use it, but keep in mind that hunt has a specific meaning in British English (traditionally).
        
        Spaniels are shooting dogs.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 2:29 am Bridget
        
        The “Hunting Cocker Spaniel Club” was founded in 1924. I think it has now integrated with the Spaniel Club.
        
        So I don’t think this a issue at all.
        
        Are you just being PC about using the word “hunt”?
        And why, because the word “hunt” etymology is “searhing” – not killing?
        
        Term “working dog” certainly works in many place,
        but I don’t like to use it, because it feels much too clinic.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 2:35 am retrieverman
        
        In America you can use the term hunt as you are doing.
        
        In Britain the word hunt always refers to hounds, or at least it did, until American English began to corrupt it.
        
        It’s just like how mad means angry here, but mad means insane over there.
        
        And how they spell color with a u.
        
        I respect their traditions and spelling when I’m writing about their customs, like driven pheasant shoots.
        
        In Iowa, it would just be called “pheasant hunting,” but this wasn’t filmed in Iowa.
        
        So Labpack is correct here.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 3:01 am Bridget
        
        Don’t mix things –
        I wasn’t talking about the name of your writing,
        I was talking bout the dog.
        You name your articles as you wish.
        
        And, there are traditions – and traditions.
        
        And, If you or some other says that there’s no such term as a “hunting cocker”, you are just wrong. And, using that term doesn’t mean that one is not cherishing the tradition.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 3:17 am retrieverman
        
        I personally wouldn’t use the term hunting cocker.
        
        Working cocker makes more sense.
        
        I use working golden retriever all the time.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 4:28 am Bridget
        
        Hunting cocker makes sense, because spaniels were out there before the shooting age.
        
        Also hunting lab sounds fine, as hunting setter and pointer. But about goldens, I don’t know, because I don’t know any real hunter of that breed..
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 4:31 am retrieverman
        
        You don’t know any real hunters who use that breed because Finland unfortunately doesn’t have very many field line goldens.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 2:53 am Bridget
        
        Yes, they are shooting – or hunting dogs.
        
        There is NOT only one correct term,
        not in the UK nor in the US!!
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 2:55 am retrieverman
        
        Right now, the terms have been muddled.
        
        But traditionally, hunting means killing things with scent hounds.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 3:07 am Bridget
        
        Well, partly so, but I think it is not the whole truth.
        
        The modern upper class wanted to stand out from the older hunting thing.
        With they spaniels and retrievers, they thought thery succeded.
        
        What would u say about the older breeds like setters or pointers?
        They don’t kill either. Isn’t it very natural to call them hunting dogs and to go hunting with one, eh?
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 3:22 am retrieverman
        
        Gun dogs are shooting breeds, if you go by the traditional words for them.
        
        Setters and pointers aren’t hunting dogs.
        
        A beagle, a harrier, or a foxhound is a hunting dog.
        
        But our language has since gone awry,
        
        It’s not so much upper class.
        
        The original word for all of this in England was Venery, which is derived from the French word Vénerie. That was back when the rulers of the Anglo-Saxons were French speakers.
        
        Hunting was sometimes called “the chase.”
        
        Ballad of Chevy Chase.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 4:17 am Bridget
        
        Well, we must remember, that “modern” breeds as pointers, retrievers and spaniels were dogs for upper class, who could afford having modern, fast guns.
        As you said, guns and these breeds went together all the way.
        
        So, if one wants to view the case in that sosio-historical connection, he may call the dogs “gun-dogs” or “shooting dogs”.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 4:33 am retrieverman
        
        I will admit that the proto spaniel, which is the ancestor of most of these dogs, existed before the gun.
        
        However, they were used in falconry. The French called them Oysel dogs.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 4:45 am Bridget
        
        That is interesting that long history of spaniels.
        And still they are crazy hunters – full-loaded smallpack of energy.
        They trust more on their noses than the proper retrievers.
        
        There is something brutal in those spaniels – I mean, in a good sense.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 5:36 am Bridget
        
        Now I get it.
        
        Some doggy people are so serious in their hobby, that they demand everyone must talk with the official KC – standarded terms and classification. And use the matching term in a right cultural context.
        Of course – I agree that!
        
        But many times these people fail themselves. Also here. For, if you see my original comment (which was “It’s hard to remember how the hunting cockers are so different from the show-type”), I wasn’t referring the dogs in the video, BUT to the breed in GENERAL.
        
        I know a woman who is a real serious pointer person. Still, she knows nothing about the Spanish Pointer and kept insisting there ain’t such breed (or split noses etc.), as we were walking our dogs here one day.
        
        I hope that those kind of kennel club -people (or what-ever they should be called) could see out of their club & standards, too – while we non-kennel club – people try to view into theirs.
        Thank you.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 2:50 pm labpack
        
        I´d presume the person isn’t too familiar with working gundogs and the terminology.
        
        A “hunting” cocker or labrador for that matter is “hunting” when on his own iniative or sent to find a blind game. ;)
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 2:54 pm retrieverman
        
        Yet another permutation of what was once a very specific term.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 11:35 pm Bridget
        
        What do you mean?
        Do you mean that “hunting” was once a very specific term?
        I dont’ think so.
        
        Or – do you mean the times when there were no shooting guns and dogs around, only merely hounds.
        
        But, still, there were pre-shooting weapons, like different cross-bows and spears, long before the modern technics – and supposely a certain need for a dog, who could work in that.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 11:39 pm retrieverman
        
        Yes. Hunting was a very specific term. Hound and hunt have the same root word.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 11:40 pm retrieverman
        
        Spaniels were used for falconry, Chiens de Oysel, as they were known in French.
        
        Pointers were used to locate rabbits and hares for the greyhounds to course.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 11:54 pm Bridget
        
        And spaniels were used to HUNT the waterfowl!
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 11:56 pm Bridget
        
        As were all the other water dogs.
        
        on February 13, 2010 at 12:09 am Bridget
        
        If the thing is as you suggest,
        the many 1700-, 1800-century writers have messed up the language,
        because they use hunting and shooting as synomymes.
        
        And I didn’t even mention the last and this century of ours.
        
        I think that the word have had a double meaning for a long long time,
        excluding a few princes and lords and their society, who hunted with falcons or sporting dogs.
        That is the tradition of the elite, and tho’ I don’t feel like speaking for it, it is a interesting piece of living history.
        
        on February 13, 2010 at 12:21 am retrieverman
        
        It is the tradition of an elite.
      - on February 12, 2010 at 2:06 am retrieverman
        
        Note that there is a reason why I didn’t call this footage “British hunt footage.”
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 2:34 am Bridget
        
        Yes, because that would have brought the English fox hunts into our minds.
        It would’ve sounded a bit brutal, eh?
        
        But for a “hunting spaniel” – I don’t think that’s bad at all.
      - on February 12, 2010 at 2:11 am Bridget
        
        BTW, it is wrong to think that a home cocker spaniel couldn’t be used in hunting. Many of the show line dogs have terrific abilities still left. It’s really sad to see owners buying pink leashes for their dogs and never letting them track ‘n’go. These cockers can be many times very keen to smell the tracks of any pray when not even not taught to track or follow. I’ve seen many show-type ones having more active nose-working than many retrievers!
        (Note that I write from the Europe-point-of-view)
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 2:29 am retrieverman
        
        In the traditional sense, hunting can only be done with hounds.
        
        You can’t do it with spaniels or with retrievers or collies.
        
        Hound and hunt have the same root word in Anglo-Saxon, which is the same word used for dog in other Germanic languages.
        
        What’s going on in this video is shooting.
        
        In America we tend to be very loose with the word “hunt.”
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 2:42 am Bridget
        
        Well, they use the definition “hunting cocker (spaniel)” in the UK, too
        It is no rare thing, that is for sure.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 2:51 am retrieverman
        
        That’s because their language got corrupted by ours.
        
        The same way that Danish affected Norwegian.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 3:41 am Bridget
        
        In the dog books from end 18th century, terms “hunting” and “shooting” are used used as synonyms.
        
        The truth about this all is
        that before the modern-type guns, “hunting” meant just “searching (and maybe finding)” pray.
        
        From the 1800 century and on, the modern hunting was named “shooting”. But it still is hunting, too. And all the dogs, that do hunt, are hunting dogs.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 3:51 am Bridget
        
        Also Stonehendge and Drury did, and they are Brittish.
        Also when they were writing about spaniels and their couvert hunting and so.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 3:59 am retrieverman
        
        This language is the most vexing thing in the world.
        
        It’s not helped because it’s so widespread, and throughout the world, it has developed its own dialects and meanings.
        
        I can go to English speaking countries and not understand a word that is spoken (or maybe just a word here and there).
        
        Yet I can speak English to a German who speaks English and not have any communication trouble.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 2:53 pm Bill
        
        Almost any dog can occassionally be trained to do almost anything, but i think it’s absurd to suggest that on average, bench-bred spaniels are equal in the field to field-bred dogs.
        
        Picking a dog for work is like placing a bet. No matter how careful you are, there is a certain probability of your choosing a really sh**ty dog that will be a waste of your time and money.
        
        By selecting a dog from field lines, you are simply stacking the deck in your favor (i don’t know, maybe 80% chance of a dependable dog?). From my experience, and ancedotes from professional trainers, the odds are about the opposite for bench lines. (i.e. 20% chance of a really good dog)
        
        BTW- In my eye, bench-bred springers are the most attractive dogs in the gun dog group.
        
        on February 12, 2010 at 10:42 pm Bridget
        
        I have also loved those springers. They look really nice, “beefy”.
        Knowing a couple of people hunting with their -spaniels, but they don’t compete, but get few birds for the table.
on February 11, 2010 at 2:01 am Bill

R-

I’d say that is becoming true for field cockers here. My new female comes from South Georgia (www.kkennels.com). Her sire is a “wagon dog” that works quail 100+ days a year. Most of the shooting plantations and dog handlers in the area know him by name, but he has never seen a single bird in a trial or hunt test. There has a mini-boom in cockers in South Georgia in recent years.

The Midwestern and Northeastern Cocker people (fieldcockers.com) would not be at all impressed with my dog’s breeding (i doubt there are 2 working titles on the whole page). And my breeder said she doesnt have much use for “dog games”. I think we have all the ingredients for a trial/hunting split within a field/bench split, within an ACS/ECS split (within a cocker/springer split now that it think about it).
- on February 11, 2010 at 3:38 am retrieverman
  
  We also have something else in golden retrievers.
  
  There are dog sport lines of golden. These are dogs bred for agility, obedience, and other dog sports that are dominated by border collies.
  
  And these dogs are almost exclusively derived from working lines of golden.
  
  But these dogs are evolving more along the herding breed in conformation and temperament.
  
  Not a bad thing to have in retriever, but they are becoming very different from a dog that has been bred for working retriever behavior alone.
  - on February 11, 2010 at 6:56 pm labpack
    
    Absolutely agree with your last sentence! Don’t know if Goldies also are competing in a new, fancy “sport” “Dock diving”…
    
    There seems to be no shortage in inventing brand new “sports” for dogs!
- on February 13, 2010 at 12:01 am labpack
  
  Bill, yes a titled pedigree is quite important to some people. Sadly the titles are not inherited! :)
  
  I’m sure you hold the winning hand now by the fame of your new female’s sire! Best of luck to you and her.
on February 12, 2010 at 6:42 am Bridget

Especially for those pure-bred kennel people – and to all others,
here’s one window out to the English HUNTING retrievers.

http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/WebPages/HRCHome

I agree, they don’t wear Burberry and woollen jackets here, but not all the English have been ever willing to do so.
- on February 12, 2010 at 6:45 am Bridget
  
  Did you believe that?
  
  Ha. The page wasn’t really from the UK –
  but now you know what I mean.
  - on February 12, 2010 at 2:42 pm Bill
    
    That page was from Michigan!
    
    Rural midwesterners are some of the best people in the world, but I woudn’t use their chosen terminology as proof for the correct usage of anything.
    
    What is deer hunting called in the UK? Stalking, right?
    - on February 12, 2010 at 2:53 pm retrieverman
      
      What we call deer hunting in most of the US is deer stalking.
      
      It’s only when hounds are used that it becomes hunting.
    - on February 13, 2010 at 12:16 am Bridget
      
      I even know a joke about those guys, a lab and a joint of dynamite, but this is not the approriate place to tell it.
on February 12, 2010 at 10:44 am labpack

“BTW, it is wrong to think that a home cocker spaniel couldn’t be used in hunting.”

Of course one can shoot over a HOUSEdog, one can use a HOUSEcocker as a flushing dog… It’s all up to the gun as to how efficient a dog he/she likes to have. ;)

I find it rather amusing to argue about the etymology of certain words in this topic. English language does have changed since the era of Stonehenge and his fellow men, hasn’t it. :)
- on February 12, 2010 at 11:52 pm Bridget
  
  Wrong; the language changin all the time! There’s no stopping.
  
  If one wants to cling herself personally that deep to a certain tradition – even if she is not BRITISH, doesn’t go SHOOTING or cannot handle a GUN, that’s fine.
  
  I even have one friend of that kind. A dog person, who took an Italian Pointer pup because she just loves the old Roman culture. And it is turned out to be not the easiest breed – in a city!
- on February 13, 2010 at 12:26 am Bridget
  
  If you keep entering trials, you certainly want to have the best dog.
  
  But if you hunt for food, an average-skilled dog is enough in most cases.
  
  And, it is all about the training and the relationsship you build with the dog. The best pedigree is not enough.
  There must be millions of excellent hunting gun dogs – who you don’t ever see in the trials or at some game keepers’ shooting.
  - on February 13, 2010 at 12:32 am retrieverman
    
    If I had to hunt (generic use of the term) for food, I would want a very good dog. Mediocre dogs can’t cut it!
    - on February 13, 2010 at 5:47 am Jess
      
      I understand what she means. Speaking from a coursing dog perspective, a running dog may not be good enough at a specialty (coursing competitions), but is a nice all-rounder who is ‘good enough’ on a variety of prey and under a variety of conditions to fill the pot.

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