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Natural History

by Scottie Westfall

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Are they still there?

May 17, 2013 by SWestfall3

Kala is a modern water dog in Newfoundand. Source for image.

Kala is a modern water dog in Newfoundand. Source for image.

A few days ago, a reader posted this blog post in the Blog Reader’s Group.

It talks about black water dogs in Newfoundland, but instead of calling them St. John’s water dogs, as I do, it is referred to as a Cape Shore water dog.

After a careful search on the Googles, I found that a Cape Shore water dog is also called an “eider dog,” probably because they used to retrieve shot eiders and other sea birds.

And of course, that is what the St. John’s water dog was used for in addition to being the fisherman’s dog.

From that blog post, we see that this breed is found on Newfoundland and on the French islands of St. Pierre and Miquelon, the last vestiges of France’s North American empire, and there is a strong relationship between the Basques and these dogs.

I don’t know if the dogs in Spain that are featured are actually of an endemic Spanish water dog breed or if they are derived from Spanish imports of St. John’s water dogs from back in their heyday.

I think these dogs actually are St. John’s water dogs, though they probably have more than a bit of modern Labrador retriever ancestry. Labrador retrievers are, of course, derived from the St. John’s water dogs as are all the other retrievers but the Nova Scotia duck-tolling retriever, which mostly of spaniel and collie extraction.

I think part of the problem in recognizing these dogs for what they are comes from two problems:

One is nomenclature.  The dog was called the St. John’s water dog, because that is where they were imported from. However, the breed was spread all over Newfoundland and Labrador and on St. Pierre and Miquelon. Its last redoubts as a “pure” strain– that is, unmixed with Labrador retriever blood–were in isolated outports (“fishing villages”) on Newfoundland’s Sou’west Coast.

But there are so many different names for this dog:  Newfoundland, wavy-coated retriever, lesser Newfoundland, true Newfoundland, black water dog, Labrador dog, small Labrador, and St. John’s dog (minus the “water”).

When you read histories of retrievers, you always see mention of Newfoundlands and Labradors, and when you see depictions of the dogs, some look like the big Newfoundland dog, which I think is almost entirely a creation of the British pet market, and dogs that look somewhat like black golden retriever or black Labradors with white markings on them.

If we could agree on the name for this dog, I think would be much clearer whether we should regard this landrace as extinct.

Yes.  This type of Newfoundland dog is a landrace,  and that brings us to the second problem.  Most dog authorities, including the great Richard Wolters, who wrote a history of Labrador retrievers, believe the last two St. Johns water dogs were two male dog that were living at Grand Bruit in the 1970s. These two dogs were said to be free of any Labrador retriever ancestry, but there definitely were dogs around that had mixed with their British descendant.

I define a landrace as dog that exists as a clearly defined type with in defined purpose and cultural context. However, it differs from a breed in that breeds have closed registries with a very narrowly defined set of physical characteristics.  A golden retriever is a breed, but the water dog from which it descends never was.

So if we call the St. John’s water dog a landrace, then all the dogs who are mixtures of St. John’s water dog and Labrador retriever are still St. John’s water dogs.

They just aren’t free of the globalized Labrador retriever blood.

And because it’s a landrace, I don’t think we should get all worked up about these dogs potentially having a bit of Labrador retriever in them, and if we are willing to admit that it is okay that that these dogs aren’t extinct.

Now if any readers from Newfoundland know anything more about this sort of dog, I would be happy if you passed this along.

I don’t think we are getting what this dog actually is because the nomenclature is not lining up. This is the famed Newfoundland dog that everyone wrote about all these years.

Of course, we need DNA samples.

These old outport dogs have been ignored for too long.  I think they may have a lot to tell us.

 

 

Posted in dog breeds, Labrador retriever, St. John's Water Dog | Tagged Cape Shore water dog, eider dog, St. John's Water Dog | 16 Comments

16 Responses

  1. on May 17, 2013 at 1:18 pm Dave

    http://www.prickeared.com/blog/2012/05/24/gone-or-are-they/


    • on May 17, 2013 at 4:42 pm retrieverman

      Somehow, I knew you’d post my epic youtube fail! LOL


      • on May 17, 2013 at 7:31 pm Dave

        It wasn’t really epic fail. How are you supposed to know how the locals feel about their dogs if you never had a discussion with them?


  2. on May 17, 2013 at 3:38 pm alectorix

    Los cruces de sangre extraña tarde o temprano, siempre afloran.
    Es un error hablar de pura raza.
    Perros blancos arribaron al continente Americano en diferentes épocas:
    -El alano Español blanco llevado por los conquistadores en primer lugar como perro de guerra y en segundo lugar como perro de toro, muy útil también para la caza de grandes animales.
    – Por otro lado existían los perros nórdicos autóctonos de capas blancas.
    – También arribaron perros ovejeros blancos.
    “Los perros siempre estarán expuestos a la moda, y su capa de color o silla de montar, siempre estará expuesta a la controversia.”


  3. on June 4, 2013 at 9:58 pm Joe tylor

    Somehow I missed this post lol. I agree with you and would love to hear from some people in that area as well. Would love to investigate further into this.


  4. on June 6, 2013 at 7:58 pm Katherine

    Thought you might find this interesting!
    http://newfoundland.kijiji.ca/c-pets-dogs-puppies-for-sale-Labrador-Retriever-Cross-w-Cape-Shore-Water-Dog-W0QQAdIdZ491484515

    I am from Newfoundland, and have seen quite a few dogs that look like the cape shore (or st. john’s whatever you prefer) water dog, but being from the west coast of the island, never really hear tell of them like those on the east coast.


  5. on June 6, 2013 at 8:00 pm kmalex

    I am from Newfoundland, but not the east coast so I haven’t heard much about the water dog (although I’ve seen plenty of lab mixes that look like them)…still, I thought you might find this interesting!

    http://newfoundland.kijiji.ca/c-pets-dogs-puppies-for-sale-Labrador-Retriever-Cross-w-Cape-Shore-Water-Dog-W0QQAdIdZ491484515


    • on June 6, 2013 at 9:50 pm retrieverman

      They do need Labrador blood to keep them going, but I hope they have wisdom to stay away from the Kennel Clubs. This dog needs to be a resource for genetic diversity in retriever strains, and it needs to be preserved as a cultural icon.


    • on June 7, 2013 at 11:00 am retrieverman

      Because you are in Newfoundland, if you known anyone with these dogs, please give them a link to this post. I really want more information about how these dogs are kept and bred. I will also provide all the historical research I’ve found.


      • on June 10, 2013 at 8:45 pm Joe Taylor

        I e-mailed the blogger and she responded to me with the breeder name and se background info. Do you have an e-mail I could forward it to you. Very interesting.


        • on June 10, 2013 at 8:51 pm retrieverman

          Just use my contact page to e-mail me: https://retrieverman.net/contact/


  6. on June 7, 2013 at 12:04 pm M.R.S.

    The blogger also shows photo of a similar dog in Spain. What about the possibility of dogs such as the Cao de Castro Laboriero (and other all-purpose farm dogs) taken to Newfoundland/Labrador on fishing boats in the early years?


    • on June 7, 2013 at 12:20 pm retrieverman

      There’s a similar type of dog like the Cao de Castro Laboreiro from Balearic Islands, Ca de Bestiar, I think. It’s also a farm dog, and like the Cao fairly protective. Both of them look a lot like Labrador retrievers.

      I wonder if there ever were any smooth coated Iberian water dogs that may have had ancestry from this type of dog that got mixed in. The Spanish water dog is actually primarily a herding breed in Spain. And the Portuguese water dog acts a lot like a retriever, and it comes in liver and black variants with white.


  7. on January 1, 2014 at 12:48 pm Theresa & Derek Snow

    Hi, we adopted a dog about a year ago and we were informed that she was indeed a Cape Shore water dog. She is very well mannered with an amazing temperament, also very strong and powerful.


    • on January 1, 2014 at 1:03 pm retrieverman

      In the retriever history literature, this is the St. John’s water dog or small Labrador.


    • on January 1, 2014 at 1:04 pm retrieverman

      This blood could be used to reinvigorate our retriever strains.



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